New Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling book

[issywizz]

Im getting it for christmas,cant wait now after reading your precis Sue 

[Belbe]

Stallions lead from behind - he would have done well to re-iterate that it is unwise to get in front of a stallion, IOW turn your back to it, because you immediately hand it the power position.  The traditional way to lead a stallion is adjacent to its shoulder, 4 feet away. There is a good reason for this!

agree with most of what you said, though I understand his point of view. Some stallions will not simply nip because they've been so spoilt that their behaviour became completely aberrant and not horse like at all. that's what he gets all the time as that's probably why he's always expecting the worse.

I would completely disagree with the shoulder leading though. After the stallion has been "tamed", sure, gor for the shoulder. Otherwise, best either lead from behind on a long rope and whip (not very practical) or right beside it's head with a very confident stride and low shoulders always watching from the corner of your eye. At least with the "untamed" stallions I've dealt with, if you fall just that 2 step behind (from head to shoulder), the horse will try to get ahead of you all the time and drag you to wherever it is he meant to go, be it mares, a patch of green grass, watever. Wilst if I keep to the head I can constantly asure it of my intensions and lack of tolerance for misbehaviour with a simple side-glance.

I believe this is due to the misconception that stallions only lead from behind. Sure, they lead the mares from behind, but in a bachelour group, the's always a stallion that leads the way at the front given there's no lead mare to decide wich way to go. Even in a mare herd, stallions don't actualy lead the way, they maintaing the group toguether and scatter the ladies when they're showing improper behaviour in his opinion, plus guard the rear, they don't decide wich way to go unless they're on a bachelour herd. It would be like a man telling you what to do in the kitchen, not natural! (though these days everything goes, LOL) In any case, I've seen quite often my lil stallion, who's now the "alpha male" lead the way all the time. I notice this "scouting ahead" is not as well stipulated as with mares, sometimes he allows others to go ahead of him without fuss but only if he has no big interest in what lies ahead, otherwise he always takes the lead and will turn around and barge the other's way with his bum if he suspects he's going to pass in front of him.
So all in all, considering with Klaus's approahc you are taking the role of lead stallion, and considering the stallion you're leading is not turing into a mare, then you should scout ahead, not behind. I have gone for the compromise of head level or just a spet forward because it's easier for me to pretend i'm not looking and still be able to see what the horse is doing.

[SueWhitmore]

I am not going to get into an argument about handling stallions with another stallion owner. If it works for you safely, fine. I was not confident of my abilities with stallions, and so I put a lot of effort into being trained by experienced (Iberian|) stallion handlers, which why I now know the traditional method and the reason for it. Sarah and I also spent a day at the National Stud being shown in-hand covering techniques.

However, I (now) would *never* let a stallion pull ahead of me. I have a much nastier technique than Mr Chicken's, but neither does he (and I will use his technique in future). He doesn't attempt to lead a horse until he has established the calmness necessary. As far as I can see, he spends his time on his walks with horses "shoulder to shoulder", the companionship position.

I wouldn't attempt to handle an untamed mature stallion, way beyond my competence, but the stallion in the picture I referred to was not untamed.

We have a yearling Dales pony gelding that I haven't been able to catch since he arrived. I now have a solution. I am going to read the book to him so he knows how to behave.

[lisaNW]

Thanks for the heads up on the book guys - sounds an interesting one to look out for. I quite liked KFH's approaches in his first book, but it must be as important for the handler to feel comfortable/confident using them I imagine.

Anyway, can we steer clear of the insulting sweeping generalisations please Belbe

hell, I swear I don't understand scientists sometimes, they seem to play dumb on purpouse. With all their vast knolage and they know nothing about comunication... must be all that isolation a lab time...

... those are the only ones that actually keep an open mind, LOL

As a scientist, I rather take offense to that.

[SueWhitmore]

Thanks for the heads up on the book guys - sounds an interesting one to look out for. I quite liked KFH's approaches in his first book, but it must be as important for the handler to feel comfortable/confident using them I imagine.

It is a really nice book, well worth getting. His basic principles are excellent, it is just doing the data mining that is the problem!

As a scientist, I rather take offense to that.

IMO, pity is more in order.

[Belbe]

Oh why do people take everything so personaly. I wasn't insulting I'm never insuting, no matter how it may sound, I'm a person of peace. I was just upset because it's something I have to fight with every day and although I understand why humans have strayed from the more subtle forms of comunication, it still makes me angry that they don't believe they can get back to it without even trying. The few people that I managed to convince to try are getting very good and succesful at it so it's not just in my imagination o Klaus' for that matter.

And I personaly loved to work at the lab, just ended up in a differenct career by accident so I think I can talk about scientists with a clear conscience. I know there are many exceptions but aren't we all exceptions in this forum? don't the large majority of riders these days do nothing but squeeze horses between hand a leg?

Sue. don't start hitting, I was merely stating my way of doing things and explaining how it works. In this last book Klaus explains very well the difference between leading and other forms of staying with a horse. I will not put myself in a position of companionship when my intent is to lead, nor will I try the reverse. Horses get used to our own notions of right and wrong very fast but because I preffer not to use force, pain or even pressure if possible, I try to learn their notion if I can. Saves both of us time and trouble.
I have also been in the Escola de Arte Equestre in Queluz (Portugal) more than once and saw them working the traditional way. I like the absolute peace and presicion with wich they work but that's not my reality. I always have mares in heat going loose around, stallions that stray from the fence, I rarely remmember to bring a whip, I leave the horse without a halter often cos the others like to rip it appart when playing, etc. If I couldn't comunicate without the traditional means i'd be in bad sheets... Just try to understand this is not an argument, just an exchange of different ideas and points of view.

[SueWhitmore]

Your yard sounds totally chaotic. I don't think Hempfling would be complimented to have that comparison made. Just for your information, I *never* leave halters on loose horses under *any* circumstances. I can take my stallion away from in-season mares with a rope looped around his neck, and what is more, so can my husband, who is completely "unhorsey".

[lisaNW]

Oh why do people take everything so personaly.

Pehaps because just as you get a little sick that some people aren't willing to look deeper at something you think works, I get a little sick of people generalising.

[issywizz]

oooh! I do love a good bun fight 

[SueWhitmore]

Well, I did what I said. I took the book for the horses to review.

Alfie, the Dales yearling, was really interested, but I don't think he really took it on board, he's a bit young, especially since he has reverted to being a foal - a Lusitano foal, Suerte is his adopted mum. .amarche's warmblood William is a right scaredy cat, he was very brave even to look at the book. Well done Will! 

Suerte, being a well bred Luso, reckoned she already knew all of it, she told me that if she had fingers, she would have written it, but a bit more concisely. She said he forgot the bit about Polos, but was pleased he remembered carrots.

This is my new Pagan barbour (wax cotton robe with custom reflective tape ) - do you like it? I should have asked the person who made it to sew in a Polos pocket.....

[issywizz]

 

[whisper's mum]

Off the topic of the book but ooh, I love the robe, Sue!  Did you say that was from an ebay seller or did I dream that? 

[TashaKat]

Me too 

[SueWhitmore]

You dreamed it Whisper's mum, but you dreamed right!