"Stiff side" and "hollow side" - deconfuse me please!

[Naiad]

I get so confused by the terms "hollow side" and "stiff side" (in terms of lateral asymmetry of horses) and their use on web sites that I've been reading. I want to check that I am understanding things correctly, and then ask a few questions. Amigo has definite differences in how he moves on 20m circles in different directions, and my own lateral asymmetry (which I a working on) has exacerbated this.

(i) So, is the "hollow" side of a horse the side with shortened, contracted muscles? And is it correct that this side tends to be weaker overall as shortened muscles cannot expand and contract appropriately? And then because of the shortened, contracted muscles, this side of the horse does not bend well, so when it is on the outside of a circle, this side is a limiting factor (so if the left side is hollow, on the right circle the horse will be sort of rigid and the horse cannot bend easily around that leg?)? Then when the hollow side is on the inside, the horse will often overbend at the neck, and pop out at the shoulder, and step too far sideways with the inside hind leg - and if so, why does the horse do this?

Or am I completely confused and not understanding any of this??? Or do I have my terms backwards? What is the hollow side, and what is the stiff side? Some of my confusion stems from this - it seems like the stiff side is not really stiff per se, that it might actually be normally developed, and it is the hollow side that is actually not flexible and is stiff etc. I guess I don't understand why the stiff side is called a stiff side, when really it is the hollow side that seems to be the inflexible, limiting side??? At least if I am reading the web sites correctly and not misinterpreting.

I know that Amigo feels kind of stiff going on a right circles, and he overbends neck and pops out on the shoulder on the left circle. And overall he tracks a bit less well on his left leg than his right leg (not an injury/lameness, this is just a slight difference). I am thinking that he has shortened, contracted muscles on the left side. And that this would be called his "hollow side".

(ii) Does anyone have good exercise suggestions under saddle to work on evening out these lateral asymmetries in the horse?

[renta]

Hi Naiad
The hollow side is the stiff side(muscles aso. are shorter there). You have got it right . Since the horse likes to weight his opposite shoulder more  it advances more his hollow side hind, which pushes more than carries. The horse is not so willing to take contact onthe hollow side rein. In the lateral work the horse will be more willing to move its haunches to the hollow side and and its shoulders to the convex (the real flexible) side.
The lateral work focus when the left side is hollow: Shoulder-in to the left with limited bend and pronounced angle - to the right with pronounced bend and limited angle. Travers to the right with both pronounced bend and angle - to the left with both limited bend and angle. I think it´s some kind of opposite action.
Rider experts are not anatomy experts..that´s why terminology is pretty often confusing  

[Naiad]

Thanks for confirming that I am getting the terms straight! I still think that the hollow side should be called the stiff side, because it is just that!

We aren't quite at the shoulder-in etc. stage yet. I've never done it, nor has he. We are working on more elementary things. But good to know that there are exercises to help. Can you think of any other exercises that are lower level that we could try?

[renta]

Years ago I rode a very stiff horse(left) and tried to use my leg behind the girth to have her haunches away from inside(or outside) in a circle. Not much success:my balance became bad . It´s important to bring the front to the same line as haunches. Nowadays I use neck rein and also can need the leg in front of the girth to achieve this.
One good exercise is the counter shoulder-in moving to the hollow side direction/rein in a circle or in a straight line (or shoulder-fore where the horse´s front hoof is only 1/2 hoof to the bending side on more elementary level) . Some steps bend and return straight or to  normal circle riding. Repeat if needed.  You can think (and do) it slight or bigger outside bending when circling to the left/riding in the left rein and in this case you use the right rein against the horse´s neck. In the right rein keep your outside rein contact and the right leg a little bit in front of the girth... use the right neck rein here too if needed.
If using a neck rein is new: train doing one rein 8-figure using the same side rein in both loops of 8. At first walk is good in all exercises.
You can also ask your horse to bend gradully its neck more nad more to the side more often to the right, give carrots, horse candy what ever and lead on the right side more. Are you now more confused or what

[ros]

I think it's important to think "whole horse" and not focus on one bit  For example, "one-sidedness" can stem from, say, a slight weakness in one hind leg or the other, and consequently a reluctance to step under and weight that weaker leg on a bend/circle.

[cirocco]

 

 

[Belbe]

that's a good question and I think the name is to blame, hollow side is much prefferable. People usually call the stiff side the one the horse feels stiffer, but that side is the one that has the weakest muscles, i'll clarify.

imagine your horse or even you are right handed. That means you preffer to do most of the effort with the right side and your muscles are much better developed on the right. Better developed muscles are usually stiffer unless you do some streching every day all your life. So when you or your horse run in circles you always preffer to bend right because you carry more weight on your stronger limbs and you can easily strech your weakened left muscles. You do this with ease so if someone is watching the movement they wouldn't call it stiff at all, even though you are bending around your stiff muscles.
The case is, what are you calling stiff, the mucles or the movement?

On the other hand, if you or your horse bend left on a left circle, you will be weighting on your weak limbs and trying to strech your right stiff muscles! So you will usually look unconfortable and out of balance to the onlooker and yourself. When riding, this will usually result in resistance to the aids and hence is usually called the stiff side, although there is nothing stiff about his left muscles, the problem is on the other side!

[renta]

Exactly ros. The rider must train the stiff/weak  side/muscles/legs strong or elastic to achieve higher levels .
I had a colt who I couldn´t keep at home without company. He was lucky to join a big group on large fields. It became the time to show him. I was watching  training for the show and was told when they started: " Very difficult to get him circle to the right". But in that evening it seemed to be easy. It was dim already there outside. I answered: "Mayby he doesn´t see what is the direction not to go" As a matter of fact I believe also horses to born "left- or right handed"
 

[Naiad]

Are all these answers to the question consistent? Just trying to understand. I think one poster said that the stiffer side is the hollow side, and another poster said otherwise? Or did I misread? I will have to reread these answers as the terminology still confuses me. 

[Belbe]

Are all these answers to the question consistent? Just trying to understand. I think one poster said that the stiffer side is the hollow side, and another poster said otherwise? Or did I misread? I will have to reread these answers as the terminology still confuses me. 

yeah, it's abit confusing. I just whent to another site where they use a terminology i think is much clearer. they call the hollow side the weak side and stiff side the strong one. But in my usual scrooling through english spoken sites, they usually call the stiff side the weak one...

[renta]

Biomechanically the hollow side is tighter = stiffer  but not necessarily stronger. Very tight chronic muscles can atrophy.
Muscles and ligaments are usually weaker(and longer) on the convex side=opposite of the hollow side: the animal doesn´t use so much the end of its movement range. I hope this helps a little, riding terminology mostly is different.

[Naiad]

Not sure how correct the terminology is in this video, but it is useful.

Lateral bending and asymmetry of a horse

[Cheryl]

A really interesting discussion but i think i am getting confused

Crystal tends to be stiffer on the left rein and when circling has a tendency to poke his head to the outside rather than bend round my leg on this rein.  To help improve this i have been opening up the outside rein to encourage Crystal to go into the corners and resting the the left inside rein against the base of his neck to 'block' his shoulder from coming in-i hpe this is correct (i interpreted this from some reading i have been doing-it is counter-intuitive to what i initially thought to do which was to open/lift the inside rein to encourage bend in this direction)

Either way, given these symptoms am i right to conclude that Crystal is 'stiff' on the left rein as the right (outside side) side of his body is 'stiffer' - probably because this is his stronger side and therefore the muscles are tighter??? If so, i can totally sympathise as i am right handed, strnger on my right side but have lots of tight muscles on my right shoulder as i use these muscles more than my weaker left side!!!  To g back to Naiad's original question does this also mean that his right side is 'hollow'-hence why he is more able to bend in this direction???

Hope this makes sense...i think if i get this now i will have this terminlogy for life!!!


Cheryl x

[renta]

A good vid Naiad.  Thanks. In the same way I have learnt and met it.

[Hammie]

So I watched the video, and it seemed to make sense, except that she seemed to be saying that on a circle, the horse will fall into a tighter circle on the stiff side, and tend to go off the circle to the outside on the hollow side. Surely it should be the opposite? Or did I misunderstand what she was saying?