Following on from Jojoba's thread

[Belbe]

(Edited by Whisper's Mum to say -this thread has been created because there was a lot of interesting discussion in Jojoba's difficult behaviour thread but Lisa felt it was hijacking the original thread.   )

hehehe! i've seen this picture! don worry, if it's not health related it goes away. My colt has this habbit of getting back at me when I hurt him (a kick with the legs is offensive enough for him). When he wasn't tamed yet, he'd do it like to other horses: kicking or biting. Now that he's well mannered he simply stands his ground.

Anywhoo, after I tried waiting for ages and not allowing him to move backwards (didn't work), then using a whip (he tried to kick it), then wacking his neck with the reins (shook his head and stared back at me), I decided I didn't whant him to ever learn it's easy to throw me off, so I hoped off before he could even think about it, yelled "BAD BOY" at his face and yanked him forward as soon as he lowered his head in apology. walked a mile, hoped on again, praised and continued. As soon as he wouldn't bugde again i'd hop off and repeat. Soon enough he understood he'd have to go where I whant one way or another so now he only refuses when he's reeeeeeeeeeally doubtful and would rather I lead the way.

I know some people insist the horse should always go ridden but I actally find it safer if the horse stands quietly and waits for me to lead than a horse that spooks and runs off with me on top. (won't forget my smashed arm so soon)

[lisaNW]

Had to respond to this Belbe -

yelled "BAD BOY" at his face and yanked him forward as soon as he lowered his head in apology. walked a mile, hoped on again, praised and continued

while I agree with getting off rather than escalating a conflict from the saddle, it makes me very uncomrortable to read about yelling and yanking where a horse is involved. Calm assertion is far more effective and much fairer IMHO and yanking him forwards is surely a punishment for lowering his head....

I met Bob once, and I totally agree about ruling out pain first, but I do think there are some training issues too. He did attempt to cow kick at me when Jo was speaking to me, but it struck me very much as a boundaries issue - him wanting to assert that he calls the shots, which may well have been through concern for what this new person was going to do to him. Once the pain is ruled out and/or treated, very much feel consitency is the key and it's not always easy if you don't have eyes on the ground to spot what's happening.

Really hoping you find a way forward for you both,
Lisa 

[tollertwins]

I'm with the people thinking pain issue....

Horses don't go from being compliant (OK - he's not TOTALLY compliant - but you were hacking him out and he was going and OK with it) to totally UNcompliant all of a sudden for no reason.

I was also wondering about feet....what is the footing like in the area he just plants? Is it harder or softer than the rest?

And wolf teeth will make some of them nutso....

AND I had a mare w/ a  stifle issue (she was VERY straight behind) that could go from angelic to demonic in seconds, and for no apparent reason.

I'm also on the 'see if you can try 10 days of bute' wagon...Sometimes that can really show up if you have a physical issue or not.

I'd also go for looking at his feed regimen since he's at a newish yard....he may need way less than he's getting. And calmer's don't hurt!

Altho trying one thing at a time is a good thing to do.

[ChrissieW]

Not disagreeing with the pain issue at all, as its definitely my first port of call, but....

Horses don't go from being compliant (OK - he's not TOTALLY compliant - but you were hacking him out and he was going and OK with it) to totally UNcompliant all of a sudden for no reason.

I actually do think that with some sensitive, insecure horses, this can happen without pain being an issue - well not physical pain anyway, but more mental meltdown because they are so sensitive to changes in their environment/herds/leadership etc, particularly if they have had difficult pasts where trust has been shattered.

All in all, no matter what we all say, I think the people who say its impossible to tell without seeing the horse are right and that LisaNW is probably in the best position to judge having met Bob.

[Belbe]

Had to respond to this Belbe -  while I agree with getting off rather than escalating a conflict from the saddle, it makes me very uncomrortable to read about yelling and yanking where a horse is involved.

well, I've learnt that it's not so much what you do or say that matters but your intentions behind it. If I say BAD BOY in anger, he gets extremely upset, but if i say it like an old primary school teacher who's seen it all and is just putting up with one more kid, he understands perfectly and complies like a good boy. yanking is also relative. A horse is usually 10 times heavier than we are so a tug on the halter just means forward, not punishment. I would obviously never tug if the horse was already moving. You have to understand horses are used to body language wich is very fast. when the horse doesn't move forward as asked, I say bad boy, then I expect an apology, as as that is setled I can move on to ask forwards again, as soon as he starts to twich a leg muscle to move I let go of all pressure, mental or phisical and allow him to follow. It's that simple. Talk as fast as they do, be as atentive as they are.

Anyway, in my opinion the most important thing is to always keep a neutral peace of mind while being firm. If you never get agitated or angry the horse will accept nearly anything you do. We can rarely hurt a horse phisically, no matter what you think. any play kick will hurt much more than any whip. But you can hurt them mentally with the utmost ease and not even notice.

[lisaNW]

OK, but bear in mind that yell and yank reads as yell and yank...if you're asking lightly it may be better to say so as what I read would have sounded as at home on one of the traditional horse forums, not one where we're promoting "enlightened" methods. That was my concern.

On a training note, however, this is great

as soon as he starts to twich a leg muscle to move I let go of all pressure, mental or phisical and allow him to follow.

and absolutely agree. I don't think it's appropriate to relate the degree of pressure on the rope to the horse's bodyweight vs. ours though, they can feel and respond to the lightest touch, whether it's a fly or a the slightest tension or feathering or a rop or rein, slightest change in your body language. And the apology thing is just a bit alien to me in that if my horse has overstepped a boundary I thought I'd set up, chances are it was my training that had a hole in it, the horse is just being a horse.

Anyway, thanks for clearing up that you didn't mean that you yank and yell!
Lisa

[Roz]

Not disagreeing with the pain issue at all, as its definitely my first port of call, but....

I actually do think that with some sensitive, insecure horses, this can happen without pain being an issue - well not physical pain anyway, but more mental meltdown because they are so sensitive to changes in their environment/herds/leadership etc, particularly if they have had difficult pasts where trust has been shattered.

All in all, no matter what we all say, I think the people who say its impossible to tell without seeing the horse are right and that LisaNW is probably in the best position to judge having met Bob.

I have to agree with Chrissie here, I've had two horse go from being safe and sane to having melt downs.  Trouble was I didn't have the knowledge at the time to realise the difference between what I thought was safe and sane and what was actually shut down and a horse retreating in on itself.  With the first horse I had with this, he had had suffered terribly violent handling by his alcoholic owner (think cigarettes stubbed out on him, being backed in a saddle with a broken tree, being hit round the head with a shovel to 'teach him a lesson').  None of this I knew about until after about 2 months of owning him, then with no reason he started broncing, rearing, planting and basically was dangerous.  A combination of time, a hell of alot of patience, a fantastic Bowen practioner, EDT, saddle fitter and me learning sorted him out, but my confidence took a hammering.

The second horse is Centy who I still have, he was bought as my non-project horse!  Turns out he's anything but.  When I tried him out, he was safe and sane in the school and I rode him round the yards fields and he was responsive and well behaved.  He passed his 5 stage vetting with flying colours and I brought him home.  Within a few months, he was napping badly, biting me, continually on edge, showing great anxiety around food, box walking and attempting to bolt when out riding on his own.

Turns out his background is pretty appalling too, bred to SJ in Germany at a very well known yard, exported to Poland to SJ where we believe electric cattle prods were used on him and he was schooled in exceptionally tight draw reins and God knows what else.  He eventually ended up knee deep in his own dung in a shed in Wales.  He is most definitely a work in progress at the moment.

I do believe that when traumatised or damaged horses start to settle and feel a bit safer in a new environment then that's when they start to open up from being shut down and then the problems slowly start to rise to the surface.  It can be pretty overwhelming to put it mildly and finding a way forward is definitely a challenge!

[Belbe]

OK, but bear in mind that yell and yank reads as yell and yank...if you're asking lightly it may be better to say so as what I read would have sounded as at home on one of the traditional horse forums, not one where we're promoting "enlightened" methods. That was my concern.

On a training note, however, this is great  and absolutely agree. I don't think it's appropriate to relate the degree of pressure on the rope to the horse's bodyweight vs. ours though, they can feel and respond to the lightest touch, whether it's a fly or a the slightest tension or feathering or a rop or rein, slightest change in your body language. And the apology thing is just a bit alien to me in that if my horse has overstepped a boundary I thought I'd set up, chances are it was my training that had a hole in it, the horse is just being a horse.

Anyway, thanks for clearing up that you didn't mean that you yank and yell!
Lisa

hehe, actually it is I that thank you Lisa for drawing my attention. i'm so used to having only 2 “students” that I sometimes tend to answer as if everyone else had already seen me work and talk for ages.
As for the apology, it’s not really a demand, they simply do it of their own accord and I’ve learnt to accept it as part of their response. My lil stallion always lowers his head when I tell him he did something wrong. I mean,their misbehavior is always second to a lapse on our part but I still have to tell him biting or rearing or whatever is wrong right? My cousin’s stallion for instance always licks his lips when we tell him off. Come to think of it, stallions apologize a lot, Nobre as zagal do it as well, in mares I’ve never noticed such behavior… interesting point you just raised!

[Belbe]

come to think of it, if it where a mare I'd simply halt, hop off and lead. I never knew a mare who misbehaved without a very good reason. I don't know that many though. Stallions will always try to prove themselves and ignore you if the chance appears, so no lapse of ours will go unnoticed, but the few mares I know always disobey for a very good reason, like say, lifethreatening reason! or because they are tired or we're disrespecting them in some way. They're very sensitive to disrespect... women... 

geldings I only know one so I can't make assumptions.

but one thing is for sure, with stallions everythin has to be in black and white. That's why I teach them from day one what "gooood " and "BAD BOY " means. So I can switch twin one word/face and the other in a matter of split seconds so they know without a doubt what is acceptable and what is not. You can see by their lowering heads or lazy lip licking that i'm not inducing any stress on them watsoever, they remain as calm as they ever where, or even better. I would risk to say they enjoy the fact that someone they trust is taking the lead and they can ease off.

and yes, equaling pressure to what we want is so wrong! the less you do the better. My lil stallion is the first horse i've touched that has no other training than my own and it's so great to see how using no whip and no bit works so much better than any traditional method i've used on other horses. Even the legs! the less I use them the better he responds! My cousin is experimenting the same on her traditionaly trained horse and it's working wonders as well.

[lisaNW]

I have one of each, and while they all have very different characters and their training is tailored to their needs, how easily they learn and how physically able they are to do what is being asked, I would still be looking to apply the same level of respect and clarity for each as I know the more calm, consistent and precise i am, the more they give me, mare, stallion or gelding.

I agree that horses do indeed tend to feel more at ease when they don't have to carry all of the responsibility of leadership, and the ones that appear bolshy like Bob can often feel more secure and relaxed when they become assured that someone else is a trustworthy leader, though I prefer the passive leadership approach than a dominant leader approach.  But I wouldn't concur that what you see after reprmanding them is an apology - I think that probably anthropomorphises too much and is more likely to be a form of submission. Most people do tend to want to highlight and reprimand "bad" behaviour...do you have to for successful training? Not necessarily...if you use clicker training as a process in itself, not as an add-on to another training system then I'd say no, you don't need to reprimand, but you have to be committed to working through it as a system. It certainly works. However I imagine most people do use a combination of +ve and -ve reinforcement and punishment. But if you are going to highlight wrong behaviour then IMHO the horse needs to know precisely which behaviour he has done that was unwanted - for me it is too much delay between the horse stopping and the rider getting off and then telling him he's a bad boy...was he a bad boy for standing still while you got off, for standing while you went round to his head to say bad boy, does he know it was what happened before that? That would be my issue with punishing bad behaviour. And would be very wary of mixing it with clicker.

Personally, I don't have any inclination to go away from bits or whips unless there a specific reasons for doing so - they're not for smacking or pulling so are cues  as long as there is no puishment history, but yes, the lighter you can be with your aids, the more responsive the horse becomes to those light aids! Thing=k we're possibly rambling and hijacking Jo's thread though, so maybe better start a new one!

[issywizz]

Agree with Lisa on all counts.
I dont like to use punishment with horses either I dont think its appropriate as horses arent 'bad' or 'naughty' they are just horses reacting to things.
I am happy to let a nipping horse meet my elbow or to make a sharp 'ah!' noise to stop an unwanted behaviour or even give a sharp tug on the halter if a horse is bogging off,but I see those as *consequences* of the horses actions and not *punishments*.
Horses dont have morality and therefore cant learn about punishment for 'wrong' behaviour,however they can quickly learn what consequences happen as a direct result of certain behaviours.
The key is that its absolutely instant-the horse has to meet the elbow when he comes in to nip not as his head moves back,for example.
And of course that it is detached and unemotional.

[Belbe]

you're right lisa, this is probably subject for a whole new forum in itself. I apologize doublefold.

Of course i'd never say bad boy after i dismount. I say it as soon as the horse starts to move back. i only hop off once all other acceptable means of telling him forwards don't work. I'm not the kind of person to push for ages hoping for the horse to respond, I find that only makes them worse. If it's safe (no traffic, etc) I sit and wait all day if need be. the only option is forwards or standing there. Learnt this with Heather's book. If it's not safe, I hop off and walk on. Every single sitiuation is unique in itself. I mentioned this approach because the description in the opening thread was exactly like what my yard's stallions used to behave. These days for instance I simply say Heh! and Gah! for wrong or right. The lack of punishment altoguether is a very preety sight but I have never found it to be possible 100% with stallions, just mares. Now and then I do have to tug their halter or stamp my foot or pretend i'm upset. Obviously this is the exception, not the rule.

As for clicker, If you say "good" or any other sound or gesture everytime the animal gets it and treat, pet, etc. the training method is exactly the same, just lacks the fancy name. What people call punishment has to be reviewed thoroughly. If a horse is playing with another horse and bites harder he gets kicked or bitten hard. The other understands and that's the end of the discussion and back to play they go. This is normal for them just as it is normal for baby children, pups etc. they understand it and so I don't see it as wrong in any way. I find that it is part of any sentient creature's mental development to understand there are reprecursions to certain actions. I'm obvously not going to get upset if a horse moves left instead of right, but will certainly let him know i'm displeased if he bites. They teach each other that bites are only bad if they hurt but to us humans any bite will hurt and we have to explain them that. How do you do this with positive reinforcement only?
I also think that humanizing is another misconception. Pups, baybies, lil rabbits and horses all have similar behaviours and ways of learning and I don't see why we should deny that.  Also, in this given context apologizing, admiting the behaviour was not an acceptable one or acting submissive all mean the same, the point has been made and the subject understood. Same as when a horse kicks back a fly while u're holding his foot, you tell him no and pretend you're upset and then another 10 flies come and he doesn't kick any of them anymore and you treat. The point has been made.

[lisaNW]

I'll see if the mods for this board would copy and move some of the posts to a different topic if that's OK.

Of course i'd never say bad boy after i dismount.

If you re-read your post you'll see why it sounded like that.

As for clicker, If you say "good" or any other sound or gesture everytime the animal gets it and treat, pet, etc. the training method is exactly the same, just lacks the fancy name.

No, it isn't. A substitute sound could be the same if followed by a treat just as you would for CT (althought I know Alex Kurland prefers a single "click" when you tongue click as apposed to a "click-clock" tongue click, which I beleive is about precision!), or a substitute "treat" - for example a scratch following the click (provided it is something the horse is keen enough on to want to make us do it again and again...which a scratch may be for one horse but not for another).The other substitutions would be hard to get as precise a timing and the same consistency. A gesture depends where you are vs. the horse and seems to reward more general work as opposed to that precise moment of "that's it, there...that twitch, that beginning of lifting a leg"...whatever it is. Pikkhu Karhu said the other day that was just what she'd been finding  - we both use a gesture to go stand on a mat which is a different (actually stronger) form of reinforcement to the clicker (but made so by making the mat a massively highly reinforced place using the clicker, and clicker is used at high rate when they are on the mat). So not to say they aren't useful, but different. I've also found that there is a huge difference between just using clicker to mark the "yes" moments, and using Alex Kurland's whole system-type approach to it ...but it would take me ages to try to explain and you'd be better off reading some of the other serious clicker threads on here - Pikkhu Karhu's and Hilary's in particular as they have been working with Alex for much longer than I have.

But if my horse was meant to be standing nicely and bit me? First I'd ask myself why the bite? Provided it wasn't pain related in any way I'd ask was it a one off for some reason I may or may not be able to figure out, in which case I'd ignore it (or if I could see it coming do as IW said and let the teeth meet my elbow (passively, just so I'm safe) and I'd reinforce the nice standing still behaviour...I might up the rate of reinforcement of that so that the horse understands that the nice standing still behaviour gets the treats quicker than any mugging or biting (which wouldn't get them at all). I'd then build duration on the nice standing still behaviour. If the horse was particularly nippy, I might need to physically reposition the head and Click treat immediately when the horse was back in position. Now, of course that immediately begs the question but surely you're teaching the horse to nip, in order to get repositioned, in order to get the treat? That's where I was coming from at first, and then I learned that it's all about the timing...so I reposition, immediate Click treat, and then before the horse moves an inch, you get another CT in again , and another, and another..so you start to say to them that they stay put for a second and the get the CT...so it's quicker and easier than having to nip, then get repositioned, then get a Click treat. Gradually you can increase the duration so you're not CT'ing all the time, and eventually when you have that established, you move on...maybe you would like them to stand square and not bite you, for example... and if you have trouble when you ask for that, maybe the original behaviour isn't quite well enough established, or you changed too many things at once i.e. moved on too fast...so you take a step back. And that's where the rest of the system comes in too because you're developing a tool box of different approaches and skills that help you prevent some of these things happening in the first place too.

If the horse was actually a serious biter/nipper, I'd be going back to work in a stable with a door between me and the horse until I could establish "nice" behaviour from a safe distance...all in Alex's first book. I haven't worked with biting particularly, but exactly the same principles as I'd use for nice leading without walking past my shoulder, and I've done that. CT the good bits (initialy at high rate), when they do go past your shoulder (ie unwanted behaviour). Stop, back up to reposition, Click treat because you don;t want back up to be seen as punishment, establish the walk again, click treat before the horse comes past your shoulder, keep CT'ing the good and follow the same repositioning procedure if they come past. You'll gradually increase the time betwee CT for the "good" walk until they are maintaining it for as long as you like.

The kicking off flies is interesting...as I actually think that as long as he wasn't being dangerous, I wouldn't begrudge a horse getting rid of flies...but again, I'd just do whatever I needed to do to keep me safe, although I probably would keep hold of the leg if it wasn't a battle to do so. And I'd follow a process of asking him to pick up his feet and hold them up for gradually longer using the CT.

There are other things that would come into the biting scenario too, because you have to be sure you deliver the food right and consistently and that he is established in taking it nicely, otherwise there's that training hole to fill in. But because it's clicker, these things actually go pretty quickly.  I have a horse who has gone in a very short time from what people would have called lazy to one that is just really keen to work loving his work ...and that's the difference between clicker as a "yes" and clicker as a deeper system. I totally apprecate its not for everyone, or that what is for them is to use it just as a "yes" marker or to teach some specific behaviours and I teach loads of people who aren't into it at all, in which case I use bits of the approach where I can but other rewards - and in all honestly progress tends to be slower, IMHO because we can't pinpoint as accurately which is the good bit. But I'd really ask anyone to appreciate that there are different levels of clicker training, and so many times people say it doesn't work, and yet it's probably because you need more of the system to get out the real power of it - I really think it's as good as you make it and we all balls up, but if you can think your way round and get a bit of help sometimes when your brain just won't quite go the distance  you get there!

Re the other things you mention - there are some really serious behavioural scientists who study this stuff, and they have clearly defined +ve R -ve R and punishment (alongside a whole host of other things) so ther definitions are out there. I think you're generalising an awful lot of complex behavioural science

in this given context apologizing, admiting the behaviour was not an acceptable one or acting submissive all mean the same, the point has been made and the subject understood.

And as I said, I'm not really into the dominant leader thing, it doesn't work for me and I'm not sure that a display of submissive behaviour means they have understood a concept. Whereas when I see my horse ears pricked, bright eyed and keen to go off and do the behaviour I've just taught him and sure enough he goes off and gives me some beautiful flexion or SI or whatever I was teaching , he has understood exactly what behaviour or series of behaviours is going to get him that reward.

Right - what a ramble...can you tell I'm off sick?! I'll try to get this moved and I probably won't ramble much more...but please anyone who does CT do correct me if I've said anything misleading there, especially about Alex's approach to it as I'd hate to give the wrong impression.

[Nix77]

I found that really interesting, LisaNW. CT is not for me, as i like what i do (traditional. pretty much completely! -ve enforcement and all) but i do very much appreciate the discussions - i learn stuff from them, which is why i am here. Oh yeah, and the pics of the ponies...

I also find the 'submissive' thing interesting. You see, i do expect submission from my horses, especially when ridden, and i have become a better, more tactful rider since embracing that and i believe have a happier horse. to me it doesnt mean he doesnt have a voice, but that the expectation is he does what i say the second i say it - I expect a 'try'. Every time. If he is resistent, i first of all look to myself to the answer (its usually cos i have tensed up somewhere, or am crooked, or have i confused the request) but the expectation of obedience is there... and it takes two - if i am doing my best, turning up mentally and physically, then so should he. and so i expect an honest try. and he gives me one, and we each think the other is fab because we both try hard to improve... and the proof is that he happily strides out to the school, and doesnt do the foot dragging, do i have to mum, thing anymore...

 

[whisper's mum]

I'll see if the mods for this board would copy and move some of the posts to a different topic if that's OK.
 

No idea how to do that I'm, afraid.  Perhaps Lucie can?