CT for forwardness

[issywizz]

Also I have another question please 
Does it matter at this stage how you lead them? Or is it best to achieve the intended balance/precision/straightness etc in the easiest way atm?
Because I am finding that if I work ala Becky style then he tends to move over at my fingers at the girth asking for forward-normally we work on a circle or along the wall so its easier than a precise straight line in the middle of the school.
So I found the easiest place was to stand in front of him,now obviously this means Im relinquishing some of the cues that I will want to work with later,but does it matter at this point or can I just adjust as things become easier and clearer for us both? 
Where do the rest of you stand to lead through this mat thingy?
Good news is that his targetting and head lowering was super today so he learnt that well yesterday 

[Pikku Karhu]

Does it matter at this stage how you lead them?

In my opinion - yes it matters, very much. First of all, rope handling is very much part of Alex's work and an important part of the process. She places huge emphasis on it, and the initial practice is done without the horse (people practicing on each other, lol) so as to avoid confused horses having to deal with lots of white noise/clumsiness as we as handlers get our mechanics right. I know it sounds very basic, and before I attended my first clinic I used to think "ropehandling? FFS I know how to handle ropes already!" but I couldn't have been more wrong. It's an altogether different way to handle ropes, and is essential to learn as not only does it give you the necessary finesse but also the tools to deal with difficult situations without being punitive/forceful. Some of the techniques use bone rotations borrowed from martial arts and even if you don't use a clicker, are an excellent set of tools to add to your toolkit. Alex had a dvd on the subject called T'ai chi rope handling -recommended viewing, much easier to learn it that way (or even better, with someone experienced at the techniques doing the exercises with you). Leading using this technique is part and parcel of the process, and while you could argue that it doesn't matter how you lead to the mat as long as you're leading in balance, with finesse etc., I think that if you really want to make the best out of the clicker then it's good to learn all the component parts - again, it means more tools in your toolkit.

Another thing in favour of learning the t'ai chi rope handling - it really transfers very smoothly to Becky style in-hand work, and from there to riding. With Jensen, I had huge difficulties in making Becky style in-hand work accessible to me, he just simply found the close contact work distasteful and offensive and become very snarky and explosive with it. Alex style in-hand work, done in a headcollar using the t'ai chi rope handling gave me that smaller step in-between, and like Ash says, in the process gave me many other tools that are transferable and useful for many other situations. I could have just insisted he accepts the Becky style work outright, punish him for the snarkiness and whatever - instead by taking X many steps back and doing things in tiny steps that Jensen found palatable, I still got where I wanted in the end: I can now do all the close contact work I like, I got there using +ve entirely, so as a result I have a horse who accepted the work because he wanted to, not because I made him... so not just that we avoided any poison cue problems, but also he is more committed, more enthusiastic and more motivated that he would have been if I forced it on him.

[Trudi]

I can feel an expensive book/DVD buying moment coming here  I'm afraid I'm like Sarah and have probably 'lumped' stuff in the past, can I just ask...is it OK to do this stuff at liberty and transfer it to leading later? Chapsi is very confident and willing to play at liberty and it's less 'hardware' for me to consider. Part of my recent thought process is to achieve everything with 'nothing' and then add the hardware in later but is that wrong? I'm cr@p at following anyone's rules or writing lists  probably worse than IW  so I don't hold out much hope.

Well done Senor B, sounds a good session (SW cues excepted  ). Day off for us today which is often a good idea when I'm working on something new, allows the grey matter to catch up (mine not his).

[ash]

Trudi, I can't give you an answer to your question, but I am trying to do everything at liberty first as well! 

[jvt]

I'm trying most things at liberty first. I'm no expert, but I know I've used significant -R in the past, and having him at liberty means he can properly  "leave" when he wants to. Funnily enough, given the choice he doesn't but it makes it much clearer to me when he is "stuck" and when I need to take a step back to targetting or something he finds easy.

[Pikku Karhu]

is it OK to do this stuff at liberty and transfer it to leading later? Chapsi is very confident and willing to play at liberty and it's less 'hardware' for me to consider. Part of my recent thought process is to achieve everything with 'nothing' and then add the hardware in later but is that wrong? I'm cr@p at following anyone's rules or writing lists  probably worse than IW  so I don't hold out much hope.

I personally don't think it's necessarily a question of right or wrong... only you can decide what is right or wrong for you and your horse. I've not tried matwork in liberty, although I do work at liberty a lot (and Alex does some, too, although she doesn't tend to teach the liberty stuff at clinics). When Jensen had an aversion to the close contact work, one step I added was to do in-hand work kind of Becky style but in liberty - I got him to target my hand with the side of his face (so he's touching the kinda area where you'd hold the rein above the bit when working Becky style), placed the other hand on the shoulder/withers area as you would working Becky style, and then just thought him to stay at his target as I walk forward, stop, turn, and whathaveyou. Totally my own addition to the process, and it became a component part that helped us to our goal. Alex is all for creativity and thinking outside the box and expanding your way of working by taking ideas from elsewhere... Just bear in mind that going to the mat in liberty probably becomes slightly different exercise that will teach the horse slightly different things - but who knows it may well open up new avenues and new insights into training. Do share with us what you find if you try it!

But I'd still really recommend adding the t'ai chi rope handling to your skill repertoire... it will give you a really nice, light and precise communication tool with lots of finesse, as well as a power tool for dealing with hairy moments if they should ever arrive. Also, while I personally think it's fine to add your own steps/component parts, there are certain crucial parts of the process you shouldn't skip.

For clarity - what I've said in this post is my personal opinion, not reflecting Alex's views - I don't know what her answer would be to this question.

[Appy2quarter]

Wow this has evolved since I last posted - what a fab conversation!!

In terms of liberty work there is no reason why you can't do the matwork at liberty, but it becomes a different exercise.  At liberty you will work on freeshaping which is a fantastic approach and can really help horses who are either scared or shut down in that it allows the former to the freedom to choose - I used freeshaping and matwork to fix my trailerloading for example - and in the shut down horse, you start to get them offering behaviours and having the confidence to try.  It gives you the chance to work on subtle body language and also on working out how you can shape behaviour chains and gradually build to the whole outcome you're looking for.  Its great for people with the tendency to want to 'make' it happen - as you cant - and also for those who tend to lump, although you do need a hefty dose of patience.

Why is it a different exercise at liberty?  Partly because of the leading work.  Although asking the horse to stand on the mat and stand square etc will indeed build balance, it is in the rope handling work that you start to see the shifts of balance on the place you and the horse meet - Alex calls it 'on a point of contact'.  This point of contact then translates to the work inhand and when ridden as the horse learns to come to that balance point and rest there, holding himself rather than being heavy in the hand.  They also learn to shift weight forward and back through not just body language but the rein, and this can eventually build up to piaffe.

Personally I think both are essential, and the more ways you can teach something the better as the behaviours become more ingrained and you have more tools to deal with any issues or blockages you might encounter either with your horse or one you may deal with in the future.  Head down for example is a great one as you can teach it from : targeting, freeshaping, pressure on the poll, pressure on the lead, backing in a square and, I'm sure, a few more.  Each has a slightly different purpose but each is valid and useful.

One of the difficulties in articulating the various concepts is that they do build bit by bit, so if you've gone through the foundation lessons and the 'why would you leave me' exercise, the matwork is very clear but we are talking on this thread not only about the matwork but the ideas of loopy training, poisoned cues as well as concept training    If you do get the shaping on a point of contact DVD, AK does show how to lead the horse to the mat and how to go through the balance shifts btw.

I think I have some video footage somewhere of Loly doing this year's cone exercise, I'll see if a) i can find it and b) if I can upload it!!!

[Pikku Karhu]

Some good points there A2Q! 

One of the difficulties in articulating the various concepts is that they do build bit by bit, so if you've gone through the foundation lessons and the 'why would you leave me' exercise, the matwork is very clear but we are talking on this thread not only about the matwork but the ideas of loopy training, poisoned cues as well as concept training   

Absolutely, and that's exactly why I find it so difficult to start writing about clicker work as there's just so much involved... and I think it's just as easy to overwhelm people with lumping as it is to overwhelm horses with lumping!

My OH videoed Jensen's training session today, he is in the process of doing something or other to the files to make them smaller (no idea what, apparently they're high definition and too huge atm - I understand b****r all about the technology involved) and I should be able to post them if not today then defo tomorrow, so watch this space...

I would love to see Loly's vid, too, so hope you find it Appy! 

[Trudi]

  oh yes please vids from both would be excellent. Thanks also for taking the time to write up the details, it really does help  . I'm afraid I am rubbish at writing it up and miss most of the important bits  I videoed today but my bimmin' camcorder is on the blink  which is very frustrating as I feel we are really heading somewhere (where I'm not entirely sure but it's definitely progress). I'm very aware of filling up Sarah's thread ( but hey she has a busy week-end) especially as forwards isn't generally our problem.
Anyway, today we took away the cones and just made our approach to the mat from wherever we were. It was really funny how keen he was to get to it and also how easily he would 'bat' me out with his shoulder to get there by the shortest route! I tackled this by halting and asking him to yield away from me with his shoulder on a small circle and then re-approaching with a little more respect for 'my' space, this worked very well. It is such an exercise in patience (for me not him) at liberty because you just can't let him get his shoulder past you, so it's a real drop of the energy and voice to contain him.
I am quite excited about this work though because I can see a way forward with it!

[hilary]

Good thread!! And such great info,

CT for forwardness was what my summer clinic was about with Alex.

I have a hipo Lottie of Langley, who , as hipos do, like to preserve themselves in case of times of great food drought

I describe her as the slightly overweight teeenager, who loves to pose in front of the boys, but as for getting sweaty well....

A few points to add to the above  -

Mats -  it is worth experimenting with different footing to mats. try a wooden one ( can be small so easily carryable). We all kind of felt that they worked better than the rubber ones. Also easy to use when riding cos you know when you have landed on the mat.

My forwardness with Lottie has come slowly  -  but with balance. A couple of years ago , one clinic we concentrated on the pose  -  now I know that there is a lot of "controversy" over this - but it has been sucha useful tool ( Lottie is the hipo on the front of the microshaping dvd). Basically, she does belly lifts at the halt , and she raises her back ( her lumbar spine raises), and her nose comes in. Take a photo, and it looks static/forced, but  doing it ( she holds for a couple of secs then releases ) you can see her using her abdos.

What is this to do with forwardness? Ths has helped build the musculature for her to hold her naturally on the forehand frame in good posture.This has then transferred to the walk and then trot.

With the trot, I have found that this way , she has elevation in her trot   -  ( Becky described it as passagey - bearing in mind she is a hipo ). LAst time she came I got her to look at it cos it seemed so slow, yet it has real spring ( I can sit to it, but am just mastering rising -  if I rise and push her forward, she flattens).

Onto mats.
Once they love mats , or anything similar, you can use it a a secondary reinforcer.

I had a bit of a circuit set up at the clinic. VAriety being the spice of life .
There was a square , with a mat at each corner. A big circle , mat in the middle. Rubber mat with four cones ( that was for teaching her colours). And a large ( only double not kingsize, £10 from local bedshop) with an equimat on top  -  Lottie loved this - we would do pose, then stand on three legs etc on here.

So, we would trot from mat to mat, then for a very good trot, we would go to the mattress, a bit there, off to do more trotting etc.
At the time, you wonder how on earth one will ever trot a whole test, but suddenly it comes more  -  and she is now even offering canter.Still a long way to go but still....canter out on hacks is much improved.

Other tactics -  I played with an umbrella yesterday  -  at liberty first, and then ridden ( still at liberty  -  well naked   -  only the pony ) - we got some nice trot to click and reward ( my neighbours must have thought I was mad holding an umbrella over my head when the sun was shining!).
If the weather is cool, blowy etc I use that to my advantage , and if I feel lethargic on a hot day, then Lottie will definitely be so.

The other thing is a high rate of reinforcement. The mat scenario allows lots of reinforcement ( which Lottie likes).I still use negative reinforcement ( I have one of Allen Pogues whips -  it has a ball on the end  - I call it my boinker!) but keep it down as much as possible,

And the best thing about all this  -   I have to tie the gate closed into the arena when I am in with one of my others, as Lottie will open the gate and come and join us. Today, I had ridden her earlier, came back up the field, and the others were snoozing in the stable -  she was in the arena , nickering to say  -  can we play  -  so we went and did some shoulder in/quarters in in a halter  .
 
I have found that Alex's stuff ties in well with Becky . There are so many steps she does in a a way before you get to the inhand with 2 reins.

By the way,Alex is near Paris the end of this month.

[Trudi]

  thanks Hilary that's more ideas for me...I must get a plan together  Thanks again IW for starting the thread and I'll go off and play and write stuff up on my blog from now on save keep using yours 

Just to say though Hilary that the clinic in France would be good (although we're a long way from Paris) it seems it's probably a yearly thing and if I can get organised another year that would be excellent although only as a 'watcher' if Alex allows that?

[hilary]

I think this is the second year she has been ( combined with one in Germany). I am sure they are run in the same way as her english ones   - I call them with horse , and without horse participants, as half the day is doing things without horses. Definitely worth going with or without . But also, the more prep you do beforehand ( with book/dvds ) the better. There tends to be a theme each year ( which she develops with her own horses over the previous winter, as well as looking at all the video she has take for the dvds).
Apologies for discussing a non-EE clinician ( but Becky H comes here as well )