CT for forwardness

[Trudi]

Brilliant Sarah (and senor B) 
Thanks too for the link Ash, off to look.
I'll paste my bit from my blog here as I can't face typing it up again 
This thread has made me realise I should stick to progressing the liberty work even if I have no idea where it's going to end up.

Had a real 'breakthrough' today following a very informative thread on mat work and clicker training (thanks to LisaNW).
I started by unclipping Chapsi and as often he hung around while I closed the gate and waited to see what the plan was. I had brought a spare piece of rubber matting with me and I formed a 'funnel' of cones to arrive at the mat. First I had to get him to the mouth of the funnel which took a couple of goes as he was trying to rush ahead of me and so I had to halt, focus him again and then work back round towards the cones. This is 'homework no 1' going forward, slow it down and keep the focus.
So when we arrived at the funnel he thought 'cones, mmm, target practice'  so we focussed again (after I picked them all back up!) and after a few steps to align him better (some back, some just repositioning the shoulders) and there we were in front of the mat.
I wasn't really sure if it was best to walk ahead or stand at his shoulder (this is often the position I have most concentration from him) and ask for the step onto the mat. I tried walking ahead first, oops, wrong choice. Worked our way to the front of the funnel again and this time I walked to the side of the mat and asked him to walk on until he had one foot on the mat    and then the second! We did this a second and third time and then left it as I was pretty pleased with what we had achieved. I have never used such a high C and T frequency and was quite pleased that he didn't get gobby or pushy.
Now I have to re-read the original thread and work out where we go next but I think maybe the circle exercise with the mat in the circle sounded a good one.
The best bit was when we finished and I gave the cue to let him know we were going to the gate. Usually he is right behind me but when I got to the gate and turned round he was there pawing the mat as if he thought a little more physical effort would yield more C and T 
Thanks to everyone on the CT thread for such great info sharing 

[ChrissieW]

 

So when we arrived at the funnel he thought 'cones, mmm, target practice'   so we focussed again (after I picked them all back up!)

This made me giggle 

Not fair, I want an Iberian now, they are so clever and willing to learn - I'm loathe to even start trying this exercise with Minnie, as we will be embaressingly slow in our results I have no doubt - Minnie likes to make me work just a little bit harder than her before she'll do what she knows I want all along!     We'll see, may have a play at the weekend, but think it will benefit us both.

[ash]

I'm loathe to even start trying this exercise with Minnie, as we will be embaressingly slow in our results I have no doubt - Minnie likes to make me work just a little bit harder than her before she'll do what she knows I want all along! 

Actually Minnie might have the right idea there Chrissie.  Alex  K emphasises that it is good to 'put as many steps between you and your goal as possible'.  Each of these little steps might then also become a tool to use in another way with another exercise, so actually, the more steps it takes you, the better equipped your tool box becomes!  So it's a win/win situation for both of you.  That's one of the things that really appeals to me about clicker training. 

[ChrissieW]

Oh God Ash, I better not let her read this, she'll just glare at me very school teacherish and say "see, I DO know what I'm doing" 

But I think you are very much right - whilst that mare is the most frustrating animal I have ever come across, she has and still is de-constructing ME and teaching me more than anybody else has ever done!      (just occasionally it would be nice for it to be easier!  )

I do think I leap ahead too much when trying things though, bit of a butterfly brain       Even last night schooling, I felt like I was on brink of something good, but being honest I think I flittered around too much between things, not concentrating on one thing and c/t reinforcing enough.       

Its me that needs the clicker training, not the horse! (but then I expect most clicker experts would say that was always the case....... )

[Pikku Karhu]

As ever, I'm coming to this late, as not been online much recently. Not that I'm really needed anyway, Lisa is doing fab job explaining things  !

But just beware that you don't ever make the apporach to the mat a negative thing at all, so plan your training of slow so you get it before you release to the mat, basically you don't want to put anything between the click and the treat...the food delivery must always begin as soon as you click doesn't have to reach the horses mouth like a shot, but the horse must see that you have begun food delivery. Likewise, I don't think there should be anything between the release to the mat and the mat...although I want to ask Alex about that as I'm not 100% sure and I think it may be OK to mediate the pace if it's a bit too fast, just not totally sure.

Just wanted to expand/clarify this bit a little. When we say don't put anything between the release to the mat & the mat, it means don't make it a tease especially when you're very close to the mat. It doesn't mean you cannot correct if the horse rushes, pushes into you, or whatever, as you're approaching the mat having given the initial gesture. So for example, I'm on my cone cirle asking my horse to do some lateral flexion. He gives me some nice work; I can click and treat for good steps, then eventually I give him the gesture that indicates we will now be heading for the mat. However, remember it's not about the mat - the deal is that he walks to the mat staying at your shoulder, walking straight, not rushing, not pushing into you. If the approach is perfect, I would just go to the mat directly. If it isn't, you can and should correct it, but make corrections as soon as there's slightest deviation, and try not to make them when you're right in front of the mat so it doesn't become a tease. The comparison with the food delivery is a good one - the way I see it is that the gesture to go to the mat is the equivalent of the click. Then, you immediately, not hurrying but without delay either, start to walk towards the mat - this is the equivalent of the start of the food delivery. Now, if you had clicked and treated, and while your getting the food out of your pocket the horse comes to mug you at your pocket, you would address that - for example, either by freezing the food delivery momentarily to see if the horse remembers his manners and corrects himself, and if not, by taking hold of the halter and gently but firmly taking him out of your pocket, and then you'd complete the food delivery as soon as the horse is where he should be. So similarly, if you're approaching the mat and the horse rushes ahead of you - you correct that by rocking him back a few steps but as you want to be very careful that the corrections do not become punitive, you click and treat the backing, then continue towards the mat again. It's a bit of a grey area when you're so close to the mat that corrections become teasing, and you need to make the decisions yourself, there isn't a hard and fast rule - just use common sense.

About mat work in general -  it's always been part of the foundation lessons Alex uses, and it isn't a means to an end, rather a way to teach useful things like emotional control (stay calm and wait for your handler while you're approaching something very desirable), standing still and if you wish, ground tying, reinforcing forward (leave the desirable thing and it's not the end of the world, you'll get to go back) and so on. Using it as a reinforcer is a relatively new thing, and opens up a whole world of new possibilities in how we can make it work for us. I'm not entirely sure why, but it does seem to be a stronger reinforcer than just the click and treat - I think it's partly because of the high reinforcement rate on the mat (it's a known place of high reinforcement), but also because it gives them a physical and mental break, time to reflect on things. It becomes a place of calm that really can help hot and feisty horses, but it's also a huge motivator for the more laid back ones.

Like with everything, you teach the standing on the mat gradually - at first you'd click for just part of one hoof landing on it, even momentarily. If your horse steps straight onto it, great, reinforce like mad, but many are very reluctant to step on it at first so you'd start by reinforcing the slightest try. Then very gradually (like Ash says - put as many steps in-between you and your goal), as the horse starts to get the idea more and more, you shape it more and more until he'll step to the middle of the mat with both feet, stands square and straight and whatever other criteria you want to introduce. The rule "when the loop is clean, you get to move on and not only that - you SHOULD move on" applies here as well - so now you can start to think of 101 things that you can do while standing on the mat. For example, you can teach them to ground tie on the mat, you can ask them to pick their feet up while on the mat, you can do some stretches or flexions or head lowering while on the mat - list is endless and very much depends on what the individual horse & handler needs.

Microshaping - IW the corrections you do on the approach to the mat in the beginning are very much working on the macro level... microshaping is working on tiny tiny detail as you're shaping a behaviour towards perfection - reinforcing a little twitch of a muscle or tiniest movement. It's a whole different subject, so would need a different thread altogether.

Not wanting to curb anyone's enthusiasm to try mat work, but I do think that to make it really work for you and to get the best out of it, you do need to make sure you have the foundation lessons in place before you start the mat work - otherwise you won't have the tools to make the corrections in a way that is clicker compatible (not aggressive/punitive). Also you need to be 100% sure that the horse really understands the connection between click and treat. Most common reason for the horse to lose interest or be unmotivated when working with the clicker is a) they don't understand the click-treat connection, b) they don't understand what you are asking of them, c) the reinforcement rate is too low or d) they are worried about offering behaviours because of the past handling or poisoned cues.

Like so many others, I resisted for a long time going "purist" in clicker work, until I realised that I really do get so much more out of it if I embrace the whole system. It does not stop you from doing whatever discipline/activity you want to do, or are doind at the moment - it will just give you a real powertool to communicate with your horse and bring your relationship and understanding of each other on a totally different level. There is a HUGE amount of science and theory behind it and it does take a while to really get in-depth with it; there's also several common hurdles that are part of the process and if you don't have the tools to deal with them and move on, then most people quit and think clicker didn't work for their horse. I absolutely believe clicker can work for any horse - however I appreciate it's not for every handler so I'm not saying everyone should do it, or that it's the only right way to go - I can only imagine how difficult is must be to try and start doing things like this if you're liveried in a fairly traditional yard, for starters! What I am saying is if you want to give it a go, and run into some kind of difficulty then chances are it's just part of the process and there's a way round it that you need to learn if you want to continue. If you have a chance to go to Alex's clinics (even without a horse, if there isn't one near enough you to take a neddy along) I would really recommend them, as they'll blow your brain away and it really is best to get some guidance for starters.

Gotta run now - I will try and get some video of mat work, I've been experimenting with it LOADS and really like the results. In the meanwhile, there is huge amount of info of in-depth clicker work on this forum already - start from Alex's writings that Hilary posts here from time to time, they are long but full of excellent information. There's an old thread with lots of good stuff here http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,28758.0.html and a little bit scratching the surface in Jensen's blog http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,34300.0.html - mainly the write up-s of the 2010 and 2009 clinics with ALex (2009 report starts on page 4, 2010 on page 11) although the stuff on Jensen's blog is obviously about our journey, rather than explaining the theory as such.

[issywizz]

Thanks Pikku 
I think my problem may have been not breaking things down enough and not reinforcing enough actually-I basically replaced my normal reward system with using the click rather than really training in a CT way I think.
This worked with the young horses because a) theres no previous training to overcome and b) the reinforcement and breaking down is naturally going to be far more anyway as everything is new. 

[TashaKat]

I think my problem may have been not breaking things down enough

That's where I like Ben's shaping plans as you can break it all down 

and not reinforcing enough actually - I basically replaced my normal reward system with using the click rather than really training in a CT way I think.

Yes, in the early stages of teaching something new you do click/treat a lot which is why it's good to get small sized treats in or cut bigger ones up.  I start off by click/treating every 'try' and only once it's established do I move onto a schedule of reinforcement.


Have you read Emma Lethbridge's 'Knowing Your Horse' book?  It's not a manual as such but does go into the basic science behind training without going too far in depth.  It's a good one to read through if you're looking to do clicker as it gives you the basics of positive reinforcement without focussing on one particular method.

[winnieandben]

Fantastic thread everyone 

[ash]

That's where I like Ben's shaping plans as you can break it all down 

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.  I used to think that life was too short for shaping plans, but now I think they are immensely helpful, particularly if you think of it as a working document.  I will write and re-write as I find ways of breaking things down into smaller chunks.

[TashaKat]

I used to think that life was too short for shaping plans, but now I think they are immensely helpful, particularly if you think of it as a working document.  I will write and re-write as I find ways of breaking things down into smaller chunks.

Erm, me too    I'm not a 'lists' person so I was quite resistant to start with!

[jvt]

Great thread folks thanks  

I too have arrived late to the party, both in this thread and CT!

Magic and I are currently doing AKs foundation lessons, and its making a HUGE difference. We did the mat for the first time yesterday and you could really see the lightbulb go on. For a horse that is terrified of things on the ground, for him to be pawing at it when touching his nose to it didn't work was a sight to behold!

I first started dabbling with CT in 2005, but definately didn't "get" it.  I now know how much I don't know, but my horse is about 200% happier in a short space of time, so I know which way we are going from here  

I agree with shaping being necessary, but for some reason, I switch off with the word...  I guess I'm ok at the moment because I'm following AKs plan.  I will definately need to break down any more complicated training when I start flying solo.

I like to think of it as building a wall one brick at a time. I find, that because usually in riding, you are multitasking (and generally micromanaging) I am having to think/look for/see literally the ONE brick I am asking for.... and not get carried away with other stuff. That's the hardest thing for me.

I'm very interesting in the mat work - I hope it helps my stress bandit too!!

[epona]

this is a GREAT thread! 

JVT....got visions of you using the mat to get Magic to walk up the aisle    and your hubby to be! hahahahahahha!!!!

I love the clicker, but I know I dont use it enough and only scratching the surface!

[Pikku Karhu]

I think my problem may have been not breaking things down enough and not reinforcing enough actually-I basically replaced my normal reward system with using the click rather than really training in a CT way I think.

I think we're speaking about the same thing with different words actually - my reason b) is what happens when you don't break things down enough... Another one of Alex's mantras (she's got quite a few of them  ) is "Be a splitter not a lumper" which again comes down to putting as many steps as you can between you and your goal. In other words, rather than focussing entirely on the end behaviour you want, think how you can break that behaviour down to as many tiny steps as possible. Each step has to be easy enough for the horse so that it's palatable to them, and keeps them successful in earning rewards - this is what keeps them motivated.

Slightly off topic, but splitting things into small enough steps is especially important if anyone is dealing with a fearful horse - say, one that is scared of being clipped. You need to start the shaping with whatever the horse finds palatable, and make each step acceptable to them. You can push their comfort level a little - you have to in order to progress - but only so little that they don't get overwhelmed. Sometimes you really need to scratch your head in order to figure out how to split a small step into even smaller steps, and once again each individual horse will be different - a step that's small enough for one may be way too big for another. SO you let your horse guide you and tell you if you're doing it right  .

I'm not familiar with Ben Hart's work, but his shaping plans sounds similar than Alex's idea of component parts, and thinking about what you want to achieve with your horse and then thinking about and writing down which are the component parts that you need in order to get there, ie. all the little steps/behaviours you will need in order to get to the end goal - or am I totally off the rails in here?

[ash]

I'm not familiar with Ben Hart's work, but his shaping plans sounds similar than Alex's idea of component parts, and thinking about what you want to achieve with your horse and then thinking about and writing down which are the component parts that you need in order to get there, ie. all the little steps/behaviours you will need in order to get to the end goal - or am I totally off the rails in here?

That's right.  I was reading one of Alex's articles yesterday, and she seemed to be saying that each of these tiny component parts is like a tool in itself.  So for example, if you are doing your circle of cones and you are asking for more lateral flexion, that little component part might become a tool to use in another exercise that requires lateral flexion, e.g. shoulder in. 

So actually the more component parts you can produce (i.e. the more you can 'split' something), the more tools you end up with in your toolkit.

That's another reason why I think shaping plans are good, because when you are teaching something new, you can look back at a written record of what you have done, and see what 'tools' you and the horse already have at your disposal. 

[issywizz]

Yes I am impatient so like to lump together 
But I am beginning to see how many things you actually *have* to work on to achieve each step and be interested in each step rather than the end goal which is really helping.
Strangely Ive always been pretty good at working with fearful horses-have done a lot of remedial groundwork stuff over the years,but thats because Im pretty good at communicating my intent.
This is hopefully going to give me a whole new toolkit to play with too 
I made the mistake of touching Bs foreleg to ask for the final half step onto the mat today,which is of course the cue for SW  cue much excitited SW and me having to avoid being kneecapped ( as I was in front of him)