CT for forwardness

[TashaKat]

Do you need to use CT for all your work if you want it to work well do you think? Or only training new things/new responses?

If you're happy with the work that you're already doing then, no, unless you want to retrain it for any reason. You only use the click/treat whilst they're learning something new whether it be totally new or relearning something in a different way. Once it's established you would move onto a schedule of reinforcement (usually variable) and phase it out once it becomes second nature. You might still want to reinforce certain behaviours even after they're established but you certainly don't have to go around clucking like a duck for every little thing that they do   

Because +R is a reward based method (as opposed to -R which is escape learning as they're  learning to escape from pressure, for example) the way the brain works means that the good associations formed when learning the behaviour translate into the behaviours themselves becoming pleasureable so don't need to be constantly reinforced once learned. There are times now when Saff doesn't even stop for the treat or doesn't accept the treat even though it's been offered! Quite different to the pone who would search your pockets for treats 

 

[issywizz]

Thanks Trudi 
And thanks Tashacat too,thats very interesting,so you are saying it doesnt matter if they arent bothered about the treat once the behaviour is established? How odd,B is like that with the SW but I thought it meant he wasnt motivated by the treat anymore  so was not a good thing

[lisaNW]

OK, an carry on for a minute now.

Yes, you're going to use the mat for everything else. So if he does walk straight onto it then I would think you could start to really reinforce it straightaway.... what I missed earlier was to say that as you're doing the balancing work coming down the funnel of cones towards the mat, once they become keen to get to the mat, it becomes harder to keep them steady and with you so in a sense that's working through another aspect of training - wait for me to see what I'm asking you to do to allow you to get to the mat.

Oh dinner...

So am gonna flit off again before I do the interesting bit, but just to say that I don't entirely agree with TK about not using clicker all the time. I agree that once the behaviour is established you don't need to keep CT'ing that and can move on, but I think what I really have learned is that for the motivation you do need to be in CT mode for everything...so in your case you already have lots of stuff trained, but say you want to improve your SI, you would be CT'in the improvements in that, for e.g. not working on schooling things without using CT - you need to be ready to reward when you get offered something great! And even with the ground work - it just doesn't seem consistent if you aren't carrying treats and ready to CT...I think Johanna will add to that. But of course the aim is you go out and do your dressage test, not that you keep having to CT everything forever or it would be pointless. So its all about progressing and moving on. The earlier stages are slower, and you'll probably have some of the basic foundation behaviours you'll need to work on, but once you get started I think you'll find it flies anyway.

OK gonna eat my dinner...

[Trudi]

bon appétit but come back soon this is very interesting 

[ChrissieW]

  Trying to absorb all this info and can't wait for Lisa's next installment!!!    I'm still struggling with clicker and getting things right, but am finding when I get it right Minnie's motivation does improve, so we now school at all times with our clicker bag attached to the saddle.

[issywizz]

Great stuff Lisa,thanks  
Whats the best book? Alexandra Kurland?

[lisaNW]

OK, so once the horse knows the mat as this great place to be, you can start to build excercises that use it as a reinforcer. So fore.g. set up a circle of cones with the mat at one point on the circle. First of all, the horse needs to learn the concept of you on the inside, him on the outside...you'd be amazed at how much crashing through the cones there was when some horses did it for the first time at the clinic   So, you ask the horse to leave the mat and step around the outside of the cones while you walk around the inside. You CT at a high rate (as it'sa new thing) so you might CT each step they stay outside without crashing in at first, or a couple or three steps when they start picking it up...and then as you get close to the mat you can release them to the mat with a gesture (and voice too). Now I'm a bit fuzzy on how we did this to start, (fill in Johanna and others who've done this!!) but you get to the point where they can walk round the circle on the outside (btw the circle is ab out 10m diameter) and you are starting to release them to the mat as a reward. You can then pop a second circle the other side of the mat, to make a figure of 8...so you repeat the process on the right rein (remember just 'cos they know it on one rein, they still need to learn it on the other) and then you can use the mat as a point where you change rein. So once you have walking round the circle, you can move onto things like asking for lateral flexion as they walk. The important thing is that the mat is the ultimate reward, and whenever you're on the mat you CT lots and lots. But while you're doing the work around the circle you can and do still CT for good bits and as you build duration. Now, I actually haven't done that much more yet in-hand with the cones etc. but I started riding withe the mat around this point. I did keep a cone circle available (you can use it for loads of excercises) but I'm basically using the mat now as a reward (as well as normal CT). So the first time ridden, it's a bit different as they can't see the gesture to the mat, so you may get some hesitation at first and have to direct a bit. But they soon get used to what you mean (Johanna and I still use esentially the same gesture from the saddle, with the voice cue to (which is just "to your mat"). So the same principles apply - either use the cone circle to do some steps of ridden and get back to the mat quickly, or I move fairly quickly to the rest of the school so one of the things I've been asking is walk deep into the corners  - so if I get some nice steps of walk, I'd CT as normal (but as I said I did up the rate of reinforcement compared to what I used to do anyway, as it wasn't enough). Then when I get a nice deep corner, I gesture and say "to your mat" instead of CT. Then once on the mat, CT several times. Then ask them to leave the mat. If you have difficulty leaving the mat, find different ways of getting off it and CT the coming off. We found C stuck a bit but we could get him off sideways with a quick imbalancing. If he came of the mat really well, we gestured straight back to the mat...so you build the motivation to get off the mat...to move.  Now the more you do this sort of thing and use the mat as the reward for the really good stuff, and the CT normally to pinpoint exact moments of what you want or a bit of good stuff, you start to see that they get more and more keen to get a) to the mat and b) off the mat...Its a bizzarre cycle of spiraalling reinforcement...basically that the mat obviously is a great reinforcer, but that the behviours you train that get them back to the mat also become reinforcers in themselves because they are the key to getting back to the mat. So everything becomes great! One of ALex's mantras is that when you train something, you need to train the opposite too as that is what gives you the balance. So you might well find he starts rushing to get to the mat, so then you start to build in slow steps i.e. wait for me again, before you release to the mat. But just beware that you don't ever make the apporach to the mat a negative thing at all, so plan your training of slow so you get it before you release to the mat, basically you don't want to put anything between the click and the treat...the food delivery must always begin as soon as you click doesn't have to reach the horses mouth like a shot, but the horse must see that you have begun food delivery. Likewise, I don't think there should be anything between the release to the mat and the mat...although I want to ask Alex about that as I'm not 100% sure and I think it may be OK to mediate the pace if it's a bit too fast, just not totally sure.

You can then start to use the mat to build what you want...so we've done sharp transitions (not excessively, but we did let him go to the mat a lot for all willingly offered forwards I suppose). And then you can start to ask for more steps of nice forward trot after the transitions etc... so you see how it starts building up? And you get to the point of doing your whole test and then coming back to the mat...so you might have to take your mat out to comps with you, LOL!

I'm a bit typed out now, so see what thoughts and q's arise and see what Johanna fills in.

There are lots of little bits of training that come up that you find you need to go back to some basics for, fill some holes if they're not filled, but that's OK, it doesn't seem to take ages. And it's not like going back to scratch because B knows stuff, so it's just motivating him to do it and do it even better.

I know I've missed loads of important stuff out, and the best advice I can give is to listen to the likes of Johanna and Hilary, they really know their stuff. And be open minded and think outside the box, and remember that it takes one numpty moment from you to demotivate them quickly, so if that happens think through what you did...did you move on too quick, was the reinforcement rate too low? Did you do what I did at first and click and treat then gesture to the mat...C soon got demotivated by that...and started wandering off the track when I CT'd..doh...he didn't know whether Click meant just a treat, or go to the mat, did he? LOL!

So lots to think about.

Hope that gives an idea anyway. I'm by no means an expert, but I'm finding it a fabulous way to work and through it have a much more keen horse, stiller in his mouth too...long it may continue!

Oh and one more biggie...pick your system and stick with it. I'm doing this very much Alex Kurland's approach. This is a treat (or mat) for every click, without fail. Yes, variable reinforcement (a click and treat sometimes) for an established behaviour, yes reducing the rate and moving on (another ALex mantra - when the loop is clean, you can move on and you should move on) but it doesn't use clicks without treats. So if you are going to use someone's system who does that, just be totally sure how it works first and don't mix them. And check out who is advising on the basis of what system so you know what works within what approach too :-)

HTH

[lisaNW]

Yes Alexandra Kurland...she has heaps of books and DVDs...I think I have clicker training for your horse but again, Johanna and others will know better what to get to cover the mat work as I think it is fairly new (as in she's always had horses stand on mats as a foundation, but using it as a reinforcer is newish). Read Hilary's posts too as she posts all Alex's stuff with her permission and it covers her topics for that year's clinics if I understand right.

[issywizz]

Great,thanks so much for taking the time to type all that up lisa!
Do you need to start the whole thing with a target? as I never have,does it matter? do I need to do the targetting cone work first? 

[lisaNW]

It's a good thing to have established - when you're stuck anywhere it gives you a positive way out. There are a set of foundation excercises, that is one, that you can use in loads of situations and different ways so it's worth doing them. I haven't done them all yet, and you may have some of them anyway - head lowering using the rope cue or hand on top of head cue); standing on the mat; backing up; targetting; I actually can't remember what else - oh grown ups (no mugging, but a bit more than that 'cos it kind of gives you a neutral position too)

OK...things to expand on - clean loops and when is a loop clean enough...
Food delivery - feeding where the perfect horse would be, feeding back, feeding forwards
(this is a note for me and anyone else who wants to do it!)

[issywizz]

Ok,think I had better get a book as I will likely get things wrong ( more lol) if I dont have it in paint by numbers 

[ChrissieW]

Funny I was looking at the Alex Kurkland book on Amazon yesterday, but really need to downsize my book collection first before adding!

All sounds quite useful stuff though, although being in a livery situation where the inhabitants already think I'm fairly mad with my attempts at in hand work and poor man's clicker work - if I get a mat out and start attempting to get Minnie to stand on it, they might just get the white men in coats to take me away!!!        Its at times like this, I envy any of you on your own places!

IW - let us know if you find this works for Bambu, as I'm always looking for ways to motivate Minnie, but think at the moment we can only cope with learnign one new thing at a time and currently concentrating on the in hand stuff.

Plus I'm not convinced that after spending probably days/weeks getting her to step on the mat, I will then be able to remove her from the mat and the thought of then asking her to stay off the mat whilst I stand on the treat spot mat makes me just a little bit scared....!!!   

Although out of interest, what kind of mat are we talking about here - how big/type?    Just in case I'm brave enough to give it a go!

[issywizz]

Lisa,I have just been on Alexanders website and had a brief read through ( lots more to read still) and was wondering whether anybody had actually done dressage to any level with CT? As I couldnt find anything in the 'clicker stars' page,that all seemed to be dealing with horses with problems,so just wondered how much anybody had done? 
Thanks again.

[ChrissieW]

Wasn't there an American recently in the horsey news - oh can't remember Stefan somebody maybe??    Definitely had a thread on the board about it.    Rides top international level.    I remember reading it as it inspired me, as previously haven't been able to find details on top professionals using clicker.

[Trudi]

Lisa,I have just been on Alexanders website and had a brief read through ( lots more to read still) and was wondering whether anybody had actually done dressage to any level with CT? As I couldnt find anything in the 'clicker stars' page,that all seemed to be dealing with horses with problems,so just wondered how much anybody had done? 
Thanks again.

You could always be the first  but this is something you see throughout ,there really aren't many willing to trade traditional with modern when it comes to compo; hope Lisa can tell us otherwise.