CT for forwardness

[issywizz]

With an unenthusiastic horse 
Any thoughts anybody?
Ive used CT to train SW as shown by Becky so I think I am doing it ok,however Bambu does it but I wouldnt say hes ever shown any enthusiasm for it-it works ok and the SW is actually not bad atall but he doesnt stand there working out what to do in order to get a treat the way others do that Ive used CT on if that makes sense?
Ive Ctd foals and a nervous Shettie  and a few others quite extensively to teach them to be handled/led/trimmed/loaded etc and all have been enthusiastic and started offering behaviours.
But B doesnt 
So currently I am having to use more stick than I am really comfortable with to get him off the leg and I wondered firstly whether it was worth trying given the lack of enthusiasm anyway and if so precisely how one would go about teaching a horse to be off the leg with CT given that you have to halt to reward which then makes the horse start thinking of going down a gear 
Plus is it a poison cue thingy if you have to use the stick to get the forward in the first place? 
Just thought I would put this out there if anybody has any thoughts 

[lisaNW]

Woohoo! I'm just really glad you asked the question 

I've been doing this with Coronel who, I think to all intents and purposes Heather and Becky would call naturally lazy.

I picked up my clicker training from Becky, so have her to thank for the introduction to it all. But Becky herself will tell you that she is first and foremost a classical trainer, she just happens to be one who uses clicker. She will happily distinguish between herself and "clicker trainers" who are first and foremost clicker trainers, some of whom happen to do classical training. I used clicker as Becky does for years with good effect. Becky comes up fairly frequently and teaches us, and that's all fine. You can highlight specific moments or actions to say "yes" to with the clicker, and you can teach new behaviours fairly straightforwardly. However, there is a whole world of clicker out there, with a huge amount of depth and foundation in sound behavioural science. Becky said to me quite specifically that she's not looking to get into a whole in-depth system of training - she already has her own, and she knows a lot more of the clicker depth than you see, but doesn't see a need to get into it for what she does I think, which is fine, she's a great trainer. And in fact, she did mention to me that April (mare) would find Alex K's mat work useful, and she regularly teaches others who are "deep" clicker trainers and it's all very compatible.

But, I ended up having to do some really quite focussed work with my mare to get her to slow everything down (in-hand) and Johanna was helping too, and threw in a few additional bits and bobs...and because we needed to be consistent with what we were both doing with the same horse, I listened and picked up some of the gems she was throwing out and saw how they worked. And thought since Alex Kurland was coming to give a clinic an hour up the road (this is Northern Scotland, we don't get that much!) I'd better go. Well, that opened up a whole world of clicker for me and I realise that if I'm prepared to get into that system (which I am), I can go beyond the tip of the iceberg.

Coronel really did not want to do much sometimes. Becky and Heather have always said use spurs, because he has always been ridden in spurs from a young age in Spain, and tends to be behind the leg without them. Now, that's OK, I don't have a problem with that, except that I think they are for precision, and while I'd rather use a quick aid with a spur than have to use repeated niggly aids with my leg if he's not listening, as that's counterproductive anyway and feels horrible, I'm not gonna actualyl kick with them as that goes against all the principles of lightness. On the lazy days, the leg alone felt like it was just squeezing a sloppy sponge and nothing happened. He likes whips...they are targets  and generally induce Spanish walk, not forward! So I was at a point somtimes of having to run a whip down the metal sides of the school to get him going. So he started to veer off the track so I couldn't reach  You get to a point where you have to start thinking about the fact that your horse really doesn't want to work...and I want my horse to want to work, not to have to be cohersed.

Anyway...Alex Kurland clinic and a few monts of mat work...my little horse cannot wait to do his work :-) I hardly dare say it in case he goes backwards again, but I am so please. Spurs would have actually been rocket power if I'd put them on a few times recently :-)

So I have a much more motivated horse...

Shall I stop there or do you want to know more?

Lisa

[lisaNW]

ps. I think the stick would probably be poisoned cue...

[TashaKat]

As long as the bridging signal (the click) is a) well established and b) well timed, there shouldn't be any confusion with the behaviour that you're rewarding. If there's any misunderstanding or confusion at all it's best to take a step back and redo targeting so that he knows that the click is the 'yes' and that the reward will follow.

Have you tried something other than a tap behind the leg? Maybe smacking your boot or getting someone on the ground with a lunge whip? The smallest forward motion needs to be rewarded initially even if it's only a couple of seconds.

Another thing to consider is if he finds the treats rewarding, it might be worth using something with more value to him initially whether it be chopped up carrot or a scratch. Also make sure that you use a high reinforcement rate until the behaviour is more established.

We've just been clicker training a pony who is reluctant to canter, I spent 15 minutes with him the other day and we actually got canter under the rider at a show on Sunday   he hasn't done that for ages preferring to extend his trot instead   I just marked even the shortest transition into canter initially so that he knew that he'd 'done good'. Yesterday we got him cantering into jumps, something else that he's preferred to do in trot even at 3'!

I'd be reluctant to increase the use of the whip, especially if he's not responding, as this is definitely getting you into poisoned cues territory. I wouldn't use anything but light -R with clicker. There is a school of thought that it's better to use purely -R than combine heavier -R with +R.

[lisaNW]

Before I divulge great detail (or get Johanna to!), I'd just add that with C I've found it to about motivation generally, getting him to want to work rather than specifically working a lot on forward, so being off the leg will probably come if you get a motivated horse 

[TashaKat]

  I would agree that it comes as a package and will definitely impact on the rest of the training even if you don't specifically clicker train something 

[issywizz]

Thanks both.
Lisa,it was your post on general that prompted me to ask the question.
Yes,please do carry on if you dont mind and what is mat work?  
Will it take me months and months and will I have to totally retrain him is another question I suppose ?  
Although Im certainly open to getting somebody in to help if there is anybody localish.

[issywizz]

And yes,he sounds very similar to Coronel 

[issywizz]

Tashacat,Yes good points, he does move off the whip being 'swooshed' or hitting my leg,wouldnt that also be a poison cue in as much as its a threat though? 
And yes,he is more motivated by carrots than other treats. 

[lisaNW]

It doesn't take months and months to get a motivated horse..it took me a few weeks to establish the mat work with C and that's what really did it. Very basically, first of all, I massively upped the rate of reinforcement in general, which helped. At the clinic I started to work in hand (in a cattle courst so much smaller than a school) basically asking for nice leading and balance, so a slight hint of falling towards me and I rocked him back, CT every response at first (so very high rate) and also CT'ing nive steps forward. In the middle of the cattle court was a mat (think old car floor mat) with a series of cones making a funnel shaped run-way upto the mat (narrower at the mat). As I came round to the top of the funnel, I'd ask for a halt (CT), more subtle rocking back and forthe changing balance (CT each step at that point) and gradually working my way down the funnel towards the mat, but the focus being on nice balance work, not on the mat. And then when I was within a couple of strides of the mat, walking on casually (rather than asking for specific individual steps in a very controlled way as I had been for the balance work) over the mat...at this stage the horse will probably avoid the mat in some way as it's currently an object to be scared of. Then I'd walk round to the top of the funnel again,. but making sure the walk and the balance were there on the way, putting in some halts etc. If as I turned down the funnel, he wasn't straight, I was using changes of his balance to straighten him, e.g. moving his head to away from me and rocking him back to bring the quarters inwards and back in line. If doing that positioned him outside the funnel of cones, so what, we just walked back around to the top of the cones again (putting in our halts etc. and continuing our careful steps back and forward, playing with the balance) and repeated the process. Then, after quite a few goes, instead of walking over the mat, as the handler, you stop on the mat (regardless of whether the horse is on it or not) and you click and treat. And repeat the process. Eventually your horse is much less wary of the mat, so you keep a keen eye out for him putting a hoof on it, and clickt treat...repeat - always working mainly on balance and straightness. Alex's Mantra was "it's not about the mat!!!" . The more you CT the hoof hitting it, the more they learn to stand on it. You may have to help them with the last couple of steps as they can't see it when they're close up, of course. So once they are happily standing on the mat, you just CT like mad. Then you walk off the mat and keep repeating - still the focus is on the balance work etc. not the mat. If you get to the mat, good if not, fine. Work in sessions of 20 treats and evaulate after each set...you might want to just do that per session so you don't over do it. Or maybe 2 x 20 treat sessions depending on your judgement. So, after a while, your horse will be standing on the mat, getting lots of clicks and treats, and then you'll ask him to walk casually off the mat...and he won't...so then you have to work out how you get him off the mat...positively! So, can you ask him to come off the mat using a more active ask on the rope (rather than a casual walk off with him following)? If yes good, take him off the mat and CT when he responds to that ask. This will probably happen for a bit, that he'll stick to the mat...why wouldn't he...it's becoming a place of high reinforcement and it's therefore a good place to be. So maybe another time an active ask with the rope will be rsisted. So think outside the box, how else can you get him off the mat? This is where you start to see what you have in your tool box and what you don't (and of course you realise you're dealing with a planting horse here, essentially so all the tools you develop around this help you for that too). So can you target him off? Can you get him to come off with a voice cue? If yes, all good. If no, it's good to work on some of those basic behaviours and establish them really well just with the clicker.

When the horse is really liking the mat, you can start to really use it as a reward...iot becomes a stronger reinforcer than the clicker alone...and I'm gonna have to stop there as I've got to pick up OH and I'm late! So will carry on later or Johanna can carry on as she knows exactly what we've been doing! And she can start filling in any gaps too!

[issywizz]

Thanks 
So if I understand correctly you are building the mat up as a reinforcer? In which case you are going to make use of the mat later on?
What happens if the horse walks straight onto the mat with no hesitation? ( just thinking of when I put an obstacle course up for my boys when Lucy Rees was here and they just followed me round loose without even noticing anything,over plastic and everything!  )

[TashaKat]

A poisoned cue is going to vary from horse to horse as their idea of 'aversive' is going to vary. Saff, for example, finds too much fuss aversive but will happily go towards the end of her lead rope and let her headcollar hold her head off the ground! That's far more pressure than I would exert in day to day handling but she is comfortable with it for that particular situation. It all comes down to knowing your horse and their tolerances which I'm sure that you do

By definition -R must have an aversive stimulus for them to want to escape it but the difference between light and heavy (which is where poisoned cues come in) is down to the horse. A tap behind the leg would, for most horses, be light whereas a smack would be heavy although, of course, to some horses the mere presence of a whip would be intolerable.  If you start to escalate (tap, harder tap, smack, wallop) then you are moving into poisoned cue territory.

The majority of clicker trainers will use some -R but only as little as they need and with a predominance of +R.

It doesn't take ages to retrain using clicker, in fact once they get the idea they can actually pick up things quicker and are more likely to try new things. They also tend to retain behaviours which have been clicker trained whereas you often need to keep on top of things that have been trained using -R.

[TashaKat]

Thank you for the mat exercise, Lisa, that's a good exercise 

[issywizz]

Thanks Tashacat,that makes sense  
Do you need to use CT for all your work if you want it to work well do you think? Or only training new things/new responses?

[Trudi]

  interesting stuff Lisa, thanks!
Sarah, I don't have the lack of forwards with Moo but as you know I did have a sticky couple of moments with Chapiro   and the CT worked brilliantly. I know very little about CT just what my horses have shown me and I think the mat sounds a real possibility. With Chapiro one thing that I realised very quickly was attention span; basically he needed high reward rates for some things and not for others and sometimes I was just not giving him time to respond. For example with the target work I would give the aid and he wouldn't repond so I'd ask again (too soon really) and then I feel my impatience rise and the whole thing was a waste of time. The key for me was my awful fence post vids as I would video each session and watch back his reponses and it showed up lots of flaws in my work. I'm still not always right and doubt I ever will be but it's great to evaluate the work and see the obvious things that don't seem so obvious when you're 'in' the situation.

Right, I'm off to look for a mat  

 

What happens if the horse walks straight onto the mat with no hesitation? ( just thinking of when I put an obstacle course up for my boys when Lucy Rees was here and they just followed me round loose without even noticing anything,over plastic and everything!  )

Then quit while your ahead  but this isn't about following you around loose is it and I would think *great* if he walks straight on because then you can work on developing the next bit. Actually I don't have a clue so I hope Lisa can explain