Help Please! Which Bit and How to Deal With This Evasion?

[Flin]

I have a French Trotter who has just turned 8. I have owned him for 2 years. When I got him he had a french link snaffle and his old owner used a martingale and a flash. I stuck to the french link but dropped the use of flash and martingale as he didn't need it.

When riding he does like to fast trot so as soon as I asked him to slow he stuck his head up to the side, stuck his tongue out and ran through the bridle getting hollower and faster. I decided to swap his bit. I researched bits and decided on a myler low port snaffle with hooks. This worked instantly for him as he has a short mouth, fleshy tongue and lips so a thinner bit is better for the size of his mouth and the port gives him tongue room. This has worked well but he does tend to lean on it.

I have been working to lift him off his forehand and it has been coming on well, especially for a trotter that was not built to work that way! I needed a bit to do dressage in and was recommended the neue shule verbindend (sp?) as it is dressage legal and encourages lift. I have used the bit now for around 2 months and at the start in walk he really lifted up off his forehand and was responsive to the bit with soft hands. (he has always been quite soft in his mouth) Once trot work started in the new bit as soon as any pressure was applied he stuck his nose in the air and opened his mouth and was out of the control of any part of the bit, the reins even nearly go over the other side of his head! To get his head down again I dropped contact and as soon as pressure on again he'd do it again. Then he just settled into the bit in trot work.

I now find he is doing this in canter now and I have no control, he sticks his neck and head straight out in front of him and his nostrals are the highest point and the bit doesn't work! Then he gets more and more wound up and out of control throwing his head and skitting about. This is very scary as no control to stop!! So tonight I have gone out in his myler and he feels so heavy in my hand and leaning on it and also same response as soon as any pressure on the bit. His teeth were checked end May and all fine there and he has been working lovely in the NS in walk and trot just losses it when cantering and I ask him to slow the speed!!! 

Is it a change of bit I need or is there a way of dealing with this evasion of contact on his mouth to make him respect and listen to my blocking with my hand. I use my seat first then block with my hand. I don't pull (or I didn't until he has his mouth in the air and wide open!!) When he is putting his head up do I give with the reins and let him get his own way or do I pull with all my might to get his head back down into a controllable place??

Really at a loss on this and don't want to go down the path off stronger bits, martingales and flashes to get him to listen. Any suggestions of bits or ways to ride would be very much appreciated :-)

[Claire]

if the myler worked, why not try myler hanging cheek?  it is dressage legal

[Flin]

Thanks Claire.   

The myler didn't work tonight and I am worried this has become a habit and wondered if I should also be riding him in a certain way to counteract this evasion rather than swap of bit. He is in the low port myler too which isn't dressage legal. 

[issywizz]

You need to first get him to willingly seek the bit before using your seat/reins to ask for an outline.
The verbidend is generally considered to be a bit for a horse further trained.
I would suggest something like a KK lozenge bit and work on getting him to take the bit forward and out,once that is established you can then start to ask him to soften and flex gently and work more into a frame,but if you miss out the first stage it doesnt work.
Myler bits are designed by western riders so imo not the best choice for dressage as they work to a completely different system.

[Flin]

Thanks will have a look for the kk bit and give it a try. Thanks again. 

[issywizz]

They are ridiculously expensive unfortunately so I would have a look on ebay or maybe use a bit bank so you can exchange it if horsey doesnt like it.

[Flin]

Will give the horse bit bank a look then and ebay! I am starting my own bit bank myself I think!!

[Wendy]

Are you sure the problem is the bit and not the saddle?

[Flin]

Its certainly the bit. Got a fhoenix and since sorting the balance of the saddle out he has been going realy well in it for months. Its the bit he is responding too. He has been working really soft and light on walk and trot work and now working from behind and off the forehand and listens to the bit without head in air but as soon as he canters he starts lovely and slow but then starts to speed up as he gets more excited and as soon as I check the speed thats when we get the head in the air, mouth wide open and off response. He is a trotter so everything he did is at speed and its a race! If I let him go the speed he wanted he would be fine but his speed is way too fast!! Will try a different bit going to give NS advice line a ring tomorrow and also looking on ebay for the kk sprenger bits.

[SueC]

Can you bring him back to trot while the canter is still lovely and slow?  Sounds more as though he's not that used to cantering and is losing his balance/worried about losing his balance, rather than he's evading the bit.  There's a few schools of thought on it, one is to let him canter on a loose rein regardless and let him sort himself out preferably in a restricted area such as a round pen, another is to only do a few strides of canter, then come back to trot before it goes wrong, another is to not canter until you can get walk to canter and again bring him back before he loses balance or starts to rush, another is to canter up very steep hills.

Many people would work for a nice, steady canter and good transitions up and down on the lunge/long-lines before attempting it under saddle.  Work on making him sharper to your seat aids for downward transitions walk/halt, trot/walk, so you're less reliant on the bit for stopping, teach him voice aids to back it up, maybe use a headcollar/halter/cavesson with the bridle so that you can use a cue on that to help.  Lots of possibilities before you change a bit that he's happy in at walk and trot I think. 

[issywizz]

Sorry,I didnt realise that was the case,I agree with Sue then 

[cirocco]

I had the same problem with rocky when he first came. He's been ridden in a flash and standing martingale with a pelham and tight nose band. He had an upside down neck and went with his nose in the air.
When I took  him out in just a plain snaffle. If I asked him to slow down or to stop he stuck he would stick his nose out in front, open his mouth and leave me with nothing in the way of control.... so I understand what your going through. All horses are different so its going to be a case of trying different things for you and horse im afraid.

When I started rocky I used to hold my hands wide and low [ because im old and thats how we were tought to ride a puller in bygone days ]
It was a case of give and take, not constant pressure on the reins, half halts, and loads of transitions while we were hacking out, until he forgot to be awkward. I think it took me about two years to be able to ride him out and trot along with him in some sort of a shape, without his nose stuck out in front.
I had the tooth woman look at him, and she said that he would have always have a problem with bits because his mouth was so small, there was such a small space for the bit to go, and he had a wide tongue to boot.
He went best in a plain loose link lightweight snaffle... [ ive got his if you want to try it 5 1/2"]

We cracked everything but canter, which was a problem that remained until he died.  sorry.... but he never did canter happily no matter what bit I used or how I rode him... Opening his mouth was a real problem, I had loads of comments about this problem from dressage judges. So im no help, but I so do understand.


Have you thought about getting someone who knows about bits and bitting to come help you.



   

[Flin]

Just an update from todays schooling session!

We worked on the walk getting him to listen to my seat and half halts in the walk then moved up into trot. All going well and he started to get powered up and trying to get into his trotter speed trot so rather than taking a pull on both reins (blocking) and using my seat I squeezed with my hands more so on the outside rein and he started to listen without throwing his nose up once. This worked very well so went into canter and made for a 20m circle rather than the full length school edge. He went to go super speed and rather than take a pull I did the same half halts and steadied him then slowly went down to trot and he didn't throw his nostrils up at me. He also settled back into the slower work quicker rather than it blowing his mind again.

We have a long way to go but I think we were going in the right direction today. We had been doing so well but my instructor does say there are times when the level of work goes backwards before moving forwards again. I think I have had it easy for so long with him improving quickly that I get despondant when we hit a brick wall but thanks for all the advice. I will be using your advice to move forwards again!

I am also ringing Neue Schule advice line tomorrow to see if the NS starter or team up bit will be better for him so he feels able to confidently take the bit forward. I will watch for a kk on ebay but the NS bits are cheaper!!

Thanks for the help and hopefully we will have it cracked soon!

[issywizz]

Well done 

[Roz]

Agree about NS bits being cheaper than the Sprengers!

I have both my lads in lozenge bits, but after forking out for a KK Ultra for one I thought I'd have a look and see what was comparable in quality but not price for the other.  I ended up with a NS Tranz Loose Ring bit and am very pleased with it, can recommend them.