Triangulating Piaffe, is it always a fault?

[Camacoona]

Following on from another thread, it was discussed that some trainers dislike triangulation of the piaffe in some horses but not in others.  Is this a matter of conformation? Stage of training?

I ask because Ketchup always show slight triangulation in her piaffes.  (she can make her mini levade attempts out of these piaffes so I'm not convinced she is on her forehand.)

Ketchup does look as though she is standing in the wind anyway, so for her to piaffe with vertical forelegs would be un-natural, would it not?  Maybe I'm trying to find excuses for a horse with slight triangulation in her piaffe...

What do you think?

What would you do to correct it?

Would you always try to correct it?

[SueC]

Hmm, no-one has tried to answer this. 

Yes, I would try to correct it.  I'd use rein-back and shoulder-in.

I think most of the time a triangulated piaffe is down to the horse shuffling forwards, more with hinds than fores and it's not him placing his forelegs further back under him, but rather his upper body being pushed further forward over the forelegs, caused by the hinds coming too far under.  If the horse then does a mini levade, or a hop, skip and jump to sort himself out, he's probably swaying his upper body back first and trying to rebalance himself.

I'd rather the horse, if he needed to step forward a bit in the piaffe, stepped forward equally with forelegs and hindlegs.  In hand it might help to cue from in front of him and use some rein-back too, so he learns that this time the whip touching his hindlegs in a particular spot means lift them, not step further under, which usually the touch of the whip on the hindlegs means.

That's how I'd see it.  I find it very hard to believe that modern horses are being bred with poor foreleg conformation that means they can't stand up straight and if they are, there's a problem that breeders of expensive sportshorses need to look into.  I'd be far more likely to believe that there's a problem in the training.

Of course a cob bred for driving may be an exception.

[whisper's mum]

I did try to answer when it first appeared  but decided I don't know enough so shut up and deleted without posting!     But I actually agree with you, Sue, so perhaps I wasn't too far off the mark!   If a horse's front legs are set on at such an angle that they are under the body and the horse appears to lean forward at halt (Whisper is like this) then I'm not sure how that can be corrected - please tell me! I complete agree that a "levade" can be achieved as you say - Whisper can bounce off her front legs and balance on her hinds in a "levade"  under saddle or inhand but she is still on her forehand.    

[Emma]

Agree with what Sue says and would just add that
I would work on collected walk (inc shoulder in and maybe travers) ensuring that you are getting the legs really 'picked up' and that the horse is not locking the knees and impulsion is maintained.  I would then move onto and develop the rassembler before asking for piaffe.
Look forward to hearing more about Ketchup !

 

[Heather]

I would work on counted, rather than collected walk, Emma. I have been meaning to answer this, but have spent most of the week at the hospital where my stepmum has had an operation.

Reinback doesnt always cure triangulating, tbh. Sometimes it can be that the horse is going light behind and therefore, reinback will help, but I do sometimes think conformation plays a large part in this. When you see the Classical Masters like Oliveira, Henriquet et al, and Philippe Karl (regardless of him slating Michel for showing wife Catherine in pics in a magazine article, on a warmblood triangulating!) shows a horse triangulating with the best of them, in his head to head DVD with Christoph Hess, I do think that it must have something to do with the horse too, rather than just mistakes in training.

[Wendy]

Would you mind explaining exactly what is meant by 'triangluating'?

 

[Emma]

Hi Wendy - triangulating means that rather than the horse being 'square' with it's legs in piaffe, that the hind legs may be coming too far under, the front legs being behind the vertical or both so that rather than the four legs being square to one another, they look like they are creating a triangle or V with the legs.

Agree re: reinback Heather and in Ketchup's case I would view that it would make the situation worse but then we have only seen snapshots and not video ....  I personally prefer to use the collected walk to rassembler and into piaffe because it ensure they are picking up and weighting each leg individually and thus you can adjust any weight issues at this point, but there are many roads to Rome, are there not?!

Although different horses will find it easier to not triangulate than others due to conformation etc. I personally would have thought that striving for them to weight bear evenly and squarely is going to cause less stress on the joints etc. in the long run.  Allowing the front legs to drop back behind the vertical puts an awful strain on the shoulders in the long run, don't you think?

[SueC]

Rather than mistakes in training, couldn't it just be a phase some horses go through when working out what is meant and how to use their body for it?  Rollkured GP horses have more to worry about of course, but if a classically trained horse triangulates would you expect the classical master to be working on it?

What conformation faults would cause it and do all horses with these faults triangulate?  Don't you find it odd that these conformation faults seem to only affect piaffe, or do they affect other aspects of their work too?  If a horse can only piaffe like an elephant standing on a ball, should he be piaffing?  What stresses does it put on their body, particularly their joints?  Does it improve and strengthen them to piaffe regardless, or would other work benefit them more?  Should horses with these conformation faults be bred for higher level dressage where piaffe is a requirement?  The other thing I've noticed with horses who triangulate in piaffe, most of them manage a few steps without triangulating, so I would guess from that, that many could piaffe squarely, just not consistently yet.


 PS: I'm no expert on piaffe, so I'm very happy to see HM posting in this thread.  

[SueC]

ref reinback too.  I'm thinking more of reinback in hand, to confirm in the horse's brain that tapping a hindleg with a whip doesn't necessarily mean step forward with it and to confirm balance, strength and flexibility in the hind end, as I think triangulation could also be down to some confusion, rather than just a balance/on the forehand issue.  I'm not thinking go into piaffe from reinback as an exercise, which maybe people are thinking. 

I like Emma's posts too. 

[Emma]

Good point Sue re: reinback - see where you are coming from.  It probably is important to view how the rein back is occuring too because if the horse is curling back, does not have the neck out of the shoulder and is triangulating at this point, as you do see in the rein back often, then the chances are that it will do the same in the piaffe I would haev thought ?

I would have thought a horse coming too far under itself from behind could also do damage to its SI from overstretching, as well as all the straining of the joints by being at unnatural angles...?

I think short bursts of piaffe does help strengthen and tone the horse but I do agree with your observation Sue that many can do a few steps reasonably well but then lose it.  I suppose the 'experts' are adjusting what they do constantly to try and maintain the quality but equally will be trying to achieve something specific to improve the horse overall .....

[Heather]

Suppose you havent any video of you training the piaffe through collected walk Em, to avoid triangulating- or could get some? Just curious to see how the collected, rather than counted walk would cure it  .I havent any of me, as I don't teach people regularly here in Devon, simply no interest, except from my solicitor, Jill, and her horse is not about to triangulate, finding his first steps towards piaffe easy!!

Do you not find that counted walk, being diagonal, helps to get the diagonalisation in piaffe, whereas collected walk would still give possibilities to break up and 'piffle' as Luis V would say!!?

Heather

[Emma]

Sorry Heather I haven't as having only done it twice myself I am not expert but it's what I've been taught / seen from 2 trainers albeit with slightly different influences from each. 
I think the collected walk gives lift, suppleness,flexion and strength to the limbs/joints which are required for the piaffe.  It's more the rassember that then leads easily into the piaffe and to be fair to what you are saying the rassembler may diagnolises the walk on the way to the piaffe, to me though its more the lifting of the front end in rassembler whilst keeping the impulsion and energising the lift of all four legs that then leads easily into piaffe. 
I think it also helps prevent the triangulation if you get the development right but then am equally sure that your counted walk would achieve the same results, it's just not what I've learned - or possibly the terminology is not what I've learned, do you think? 
Sometimes I think maybe it is how we are taught something and personally feel it that maybe makes the difference ... but I also believe that there are many ways to achieving the same thing dependent on the horse and ones experience.
Interesting discussion this.  If I can get some video I will do - may be the autumn before I have a chance - anyone else got anything to show in the meantime - would be interested to see a vid of Ketchup by the way as she started this discussion !

[Heather]

There is a very short clip of her on youtube  that I put up a couple of years ago or more, when she was just learning piaffe, Emma.

Ketchup

[Camacoona]

Thanks everyone for your answers,  I've been in bed for the past few days again with pneumonia so will try to post again later with my findings with Ketchup.

Omar

[whisper's mum]

Oooh heck, get well soon.