Training methods

[issywizz]

Ive posted this on BD but thought I would post here for discussion also.

Ive been pondering with all the talk about LDR/ BTV/ OTV etc etc in recent months what is actually the difference between 'framing' the horse with our seat,legs and hands and thereby setting parameters in which we wish him to work and restricting the front end/fixing the head and neck,compressing the body,blocking the back etc.
At one end of the scale we are told that riding a hollow horse is damaging and at the other we are told that riding BTV is also damaging.
Forcing the horse into a frame is apparently damaging as is riding a horse who is strung out,seems whatever we do there are dire consequences if we dont do it right lol.

Here are two vids of the SRS,in the first there is a fair amount of unquiet heads/necks-hollowing/resisting/head tilting etc,this vid was in the 70s.

Ziehrer: Schonfeldmarsch, Op 422 (Boskovsky Wien 1973)

The second vid is more recent and the horses are much quieter to the contact however there are moments BTV;

Spanish Riding School Vienna Philharmonic Beliebte Annen Polka Johann Strauss Elisen Polka Op 151

I prefer the second but I wonder if some would say that the horses are being 'held' onto the contact and this is therefore wrong?
It also seems to me that its very common in competition dressage to see quiet heads/mouths whereas in a lot of classical there is a lot of hollowing/bit chomping etc.
In fact I watched some vids of Luis Valenca and the horses were very unquiet to the hand-cant say I liked it atall tbh.
Of course if one asks a classical person the competition horses are only still because they arent allowed to move! and the classical horses are as it should be,hmmmmm......
Thoughts anybody?

[Heather]

Were the vids of Luis himself riding, Sarah? I didnt know there were any in existence, except I have some private footage I shot some years ago. But the Iberians want the mouth to be champing the bit, although softly, not in a hectic way. It is what makes it so difficult to retrain to a still mouth for competition, if they have had extensive training in Portugal and Spain.

Will try to download the second video- saw the first one on the BT group and was disappointed!

[issywizz]

Heather-yes and no,Ive seen vod of him in exhibition and also vid of him training others including Fillipa and I just didnt like the way the contact was-same goes for the passage vid of Juan Diego,the contact is snatchy,above the bit,tilting or at best rabid chomping!
What *is* that all about? 
Personally I prefer to see a quiet head and neck but then we are told that the horse isnt working through 

[jenb]

This is very topical for me.  Over the last few months I have come to the conclusion that I have missed a chunk of Gazdag's education out, by trying to be too quiet with my hands.  This had the result of him deciding that chucking his head around, hollowing etc was fair game, he was not sufficiently educated to yield to the bit.  Completely my fault.  I said when I bought him that any mistakes would be entirely my doing, lol!  Luckily for me, he is a clever chap and very easy to train, so he quickly accepted the "new rules" and has learned to stretch FDO when I ask, and is realising that hollowing is not necessary and he can work quite well with a lower head carriage.  Not low low, just more normal!  And very much just stretching periodically throughout the work, not going round and round with a low neck.  Unfortunately he has now discovered that putting one's head down in canter is not only possible, but rather enjoyable, and thinks that shoving his head between his knees on hacks and bouncing around is very funny....      God help me when I take him onto Market Rasen racecourse on a fun ride this week!!!   

There is indeed a fine balance between allowing the horse to go too hollow, and putting them too deep.  Even Gazdag, very naturally uphill and off the forehand, will go onto the forehand if he stretches too low, I have discovered.  I am pretty sure I now have a happy medium, he's working well, understanding the aids and is still light in front.  But yes, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't....

Must put this on my blog....

[jenb]

Just watched the vids and I prefer the first...    But the hollowing is precisely what I am on about, except less obvious on the vids.  However, I thought there was only a small amount of hollowing and more relaxed faces on the first vid, and LOTS of btv on the second vid with more evidence of tension.  With this breed, it is very hard to find a happy medium!

[issywizz]

Yes I agree Jenny it is definitely more difficult in different breeds-I have ridden horses that just drop automatically onto the bit by being forward calm and straight but I wouldnt think that is commonly the case with either Iberians or Lippis,certainly hasnt been my experience anyway.
Lol at the norty Gazdag! 
Btw talking of videos have you got the Heinrichs one? Ive just been watching it after somebody reminded me of it and there is some beautiful work on an advanced Lippi (cross?) really rather inspiring.

[jenb]

No, nor my experience.  The trouble with Lipis is that the necks are so high set and muscular, the forehand so uphill and the backs tending towards being hollow (broadly speaking, as a breed) that they find it so easy to do their work whilst being hollow, even quite demanding work.  The frame I am aiming for is like the one in the ridden pic on my signature.  That was a nice moment which I am aiming to have more consistently through his work!

Haven't seen that dvd, will put it on my list, thanks!   

[issywizz]

Yes thats exactly my take on it too. 
Iberians are more sneaky  but still the contact is probably the most difficult aspect of training them.

[Mossy]

I can't watch the vids, am at work, but having seen Gill Higgin's video whenever I see a horse ridden  or working, I "see" the spine underneath and visualise what is happeniing and think posture. Some experiences change your whole way of thinking. Heatehr did, Ben Hart has, and now Gill Higgins. I feel truely blessed

[issywizz]

Confusing isnt it?
I am not sure I know what to think anymore tbh  knitting looks more atractive by the day 

[issywizz]

I guess if he was hollow in the back I would ask him to work lower and rounder but not btv,if he drops behind the contact I would ask him to work in a more horizontal frame-ie; send him out to the bridle.
Its later on that Im finding confusing,the first bit of getting B out to the bridle was relatively easy 
What do you think of this?
http://www.greatfarmstables.com/HANS-HANDLER--SRS--notes.html

Half way down the page under the heading " the first year of training".

[Heather]

Maria, your post makes perfect sense . Sarah, I dont mind btv in a younger weaker horse, to be honest. I wish I had let Rei stay in his naturally btv position whilst he developed the strength to come up in front, instead of trying to get him more 'up' before he was ready.

Must have a look at the article on Cat's site.................

[Heather]

OK, read the article- it is pretty bog standard really. I am always looking for the young horse ( or come to that, one for reschooling) to stretch out and forwards whilst still remaining round over the back, taking longer steps in a slower tempo, and that would go for either type of conformation to begin with. It would also depend on whether the horse is naturally forward or not very active, as to how I would begin this. With a phlegmatic horse, I would send him more forwards, even if it meant quickening the tempo to begin with. With the hot horse, it would always be to slow him  down and take longer steps, as they will be more likely to take short, quick choppy steps.

I do think that with the movement of some Iberians, that they find it very difficult to take longer slower steps- Sudi is a prime example. Rei doesnt move like most Iberians and it is easy to get him to take the longer more sweeping steps. Sudi finds collected work much easier, but he isnt tight through his back either. It is difficult to describe in words. He used to want to come pretty much btv, but now is far less inclined to as he strengthens behind. But with Sudi, as he finds passage very easy, I will be introducing medium and extended trot from this, so that he develops the real expression without running. It is a fine line, especially with a hot head like him- keeping the lid on is the hardest part!

[MagsnDan]

*stares at the spot on the wall*

[issywizz]

Heather I agree that if the horse wants to put itself slightly btv to begin with thats probably not a problem-the problem is when he is put there whether intentionally or inadvertently by the rider.
I would still ask him to reach forward for the bit but not ask him up personally.
At the end of the day though the feel in the hand is more important than what the head/neck is doing ( within reason  )