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Author Topic: Help please Clicker Experts!  (Read 420 times)
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Cabruze
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« on: June 22, 2010, 07:49:49 AM »

Need some advice please.  I've used CT a little bit with Zeffy.  Always avoided it - not because I don't think it sounds like a great tool - but simply due to lack of time!  However, when I backed Zeffy, my trainer advised me to CT him to stop so that I had "emergency brakes".  I've also used it with great success to catch him if he decides he'd rather eat grass!  rolleyes  He moves away from me, I click (tongue) and he immediately comes to me.  So he understands the primary and secondary reinforcer bit.

I've been using it to help with loading.  First couple of years no (major) problem loading.  For the last 12 months he's been reluctant to load. ...... in fact as my OH was getting stressy about getting home I actually had to leave him in the New Forest at Easter!!   whistle (Went back and got him the next day!)

So I started by using CT to tackle as many wierd and wonderful things I could and it's worked an absolute treat and Zeffy loves it.  His favourite is standing with his front feet on a tree stump with his willy hanging out!  laugh He's now happy to do all these things with a simple ask and "good boy".

Back to the horsebox!  I can "make" him go in but I don't want to.  I'm happy to spend as much time as necessary but Z is so clever and I'm not sure who's actually being CT'd - him or me!!  We've got as far as approaching the ramp calmly, putting two front feet on calmly, taking another step forward calmly (still front feet only).  Now the first step onto the ramp is solid I've just been using "good boy" and click & treating only for extra effort.  But we seem to have got stuck 'cos as soon as Z's had his treat he backs off the ramp- calmly but purposefully!  I'm careful about timing and don't think I've rewarded the wrong behavour.

Should I just continue click & treating when he moves further up the ramp and not worrying about him reversing when he's finished his treat?
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"In horsemanship there is not neutrality.  You are either furthering your horse's wellbeing or destroying it." Charles de Kunffy
Appy2quarter
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 09:10:13 AM »

Hiya

There are several things you could try here, so I've included a few from suggestions in what you're currently doing to some different approaches - hope there aren't too many!!

You are right, in an ideal world, you wouldn't want to get stuck in a loop of 'walk forward 2 steps, get treat, reverse, repeat' so you could ask him to step forward onto the ramp and then, when he makes that extra bit of effort (which could be as small as even thinking about moving btw, which sometimes makes more of a difference than waiting for the foot to lift) feed him forwards so he has to think forward whilst he takes his treat.  Also how you are you asking?  are you beside him? infront of him?  Make sure you aren't blocking him in any way.

If he reverses off, walk him forward to the point you left off and make sure he does walk forward more than the previous time so that you change the loop.  If he does walk forward a bit further each time, then it doesn't matter that he is walking off the ramp after the click.  Ask yourself if he is genuinely going a bit further each time as it sounds that he is offering the same each time and still getting rewarded, hence the pattern he is in.  If he isn't offering that tiny bit more, then he doesn't get the click and treat and you may need to be v quick to notice that tiny shift forward when he twigs that he has to put more effort in.  You could even put tiny markers on the ramp and focus on asking him to stand on these, rather than going up the ramp as the goal.

Having just been on an Alex K clinic, I'll bring in some ideas from this  Cheesy  We worked a lot on matwork - have you worked on this at all?  It can be very powerful indeed to encourage other behaviours.  If you were to train Zeffy to stand on the mat and reward things such as standing square, standing without mugging and so on, you build a really strong draw to the mat - in other words, its a great place to be.  You can then incorporate the mat not only to create a desire to go and stand on it but also as a reward - you good boy, you walked forward, now you get to stand on your mat.  You can then move his mat near the trailer and gradually up the ramp. 

To build the matwork, you'd ask him to walk forward to your mat and initially reward just a toe, then a bit more, then one foot, then two and so on.  Once he is standing on the mat, you can 'layer up' the rewards (ie making the mat a great place) by asking him to stand square first infront, then behind etc, back him off and reward him for backing politely, reward him for duration on the mat and so on.  The funny thing is that often you then have to work on leading them OFF the matt and controlling their walk forward to it as they are so keen to get to it. 

This is great and quite normal as it gets you to work on really fine leading skills that will transfer directly to your loading dilemma - focus on leading toward the mat and ask for really tiny steps forward and back.  Can you ask him to think about lifting a leg forward?  c/t  how about backward?  c/t   You want to be able to ask for tiny weight shifts forward and back - say a couple of steps and then let him walk to his mat as a reward.  This will really help you moving up the ramp.

The other option to you is to use targeting (although one could argue matwork is also targeting) - this is what I had to do with my mare, as she would walk into the trailer and then reverse out at great speed which was not safe!  I used targeting to help her - does Zeffy target?  If so, I'd suggest that you try asking him to target up the ramp bit by bit, either to your fist or to a cone or something (which is what I did).  This absolutely gives them the freedom to respond or not and may get you over the hump of going back to where you started each time.  Do you have a set up where you can work at liberty?  Sometimes freeshaping a behaviour can make huge changes.

One of the things Alex always says is that its worth training a behaviour several different ways to get it really strong, so by combining matwork, leading practice and targeting you hopefully will get over this little bump!  If you have any of her books, there's detail on targeting and matwork in there.

All the best!!!
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Cabruze
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 09:47:28 AM »

Quote
I've used CT a little bit with Zeffy.  Always avoided it - not because I don't think it sounds like a great tool - but simply due to lack of time!  However, when I backed Zeffy, my trainer advised me to CT him to stop so that I had "emergency brakes".  I've also used it with great success to catch him if he decides he'd rather eat grass!  rolleyes  He moves away from me, I click (tongue) and he immediately comes to me.  So he understands the primary and secondary reinforcer bit.

Oh dear!  doh  This isn't clicker training at all!! What I've been doing is teaching him to respond to bribes. 

So I'm going to start again.  With an actual clicker.  Yes A2Q, I have got Alexander Kurland's book ... but only read the first couple of chapters!  whistle  Great suggestions, thank you.  thumbs And I'm going to start with proper target training.  Mat work sounds like a good plan too.  And I do have some spare mats I can use.

As for my position when loading - I stand on the ramp but to the side and standing sideways on to him so as not to block him.  I'm going to CT him to move forward with me at his side which I think would be better.

So back to the start!!  rolleyes
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"In horsemanship there is not neutrality.  You are either furthering your horse's wellbeing or destroying it." Charles de Kunffy
Appy2quarter
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 09:22:18 PM »

Easily done!!!  You do need to be very clear about what you're rewarding as these critters are very smart  nod  They can work out that, for example, stepping away from the mounting block causes the human to ask them to move back and c/t when they do - sneaky little blighters!!!  Its like the dog that runs off so that their owner calls them back and rewards them when they do......  I trained Loly to pretend to nip me so that I'd ask him to stand square and treat him when he did - DOH!!!  whistle

Def worth taking a break, reading Alex's book and maybe practice something like targeting or the standing on a mat so that you can practice your timing and also the behaviour you want, then when you go back to the ramp, it should be clearer.  Mine love the matwork, and it really helps them stand up nice and square  Cheesy

Have fun  Cheesy
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