starting youngster lungeing in headcollar

[Pikku Karhu]

Absolutely agree on the clearness of communication - the amount of white noise we give our horses is incredible, and for animals whose communication is much more based on body language than verbal, it must be SO confusing. That they somehow manage to figure out what we want & comply is indeed a miracle, and how on earth do they manage to shift through all the messages we send out all the time, unintentionally, and choose the ones we DO mean and ignore the ones we don't? I think it's so important when a horse does something that we didn't ask/want, to consider whether we actually DID ask, just didn't realise that we did... ridden and from the ground alike. In addition, we demand our horses to respond sharply to our requests - the ones we do mean, yet want them to ignore 101 signals that we send out unintentionally. How are they supposed to know which is which?

And yes, working in liberty trains us, as handlers, as much as the horses...and anything trained in liberty, when transferred to tacked-up is so easy, and you can just add the finesse to communication that is already established.

[lmevans]

Dammit, I toddle off for lunch and now there's a whole page to catch up on!  

It is interesting, but I utterly disagree that horses only complain or refuse or playup or whatever you want to call it when they are in discomfort or are confused. Some personalities are simply cheeky and more playful than others, and will try their luck even when they know really what you want. For example:

my two adults - Noosa, hyper-sensitive, intelligent, nervy and anxious by nature, but desperate to please and always keen to try whatever you want to teach her. A real teacher's pet, goodie two shoes type (only with no shoes actually   ). When she gets upset it is for genuine reasons, like misunderstanding or discomfort, she is utterly honest and reacts consistently whatever happens. Tonka on the other hand, laid back, cheeky, easy going, very clever but inherently lazy. Needs serious motivation to do something new, but has an enormous sense of humour (this is the horse that tipped me into the trough when I wasn't looking and then stood shaking his head up and down as if laughing   ). He will be a downright brat if he feels like it, stubborn in the extreme, in spite of knowing exactly what I want and not being in any kind of discomfort, he'd just rather be eating in the sun.

I also know a horse who lies about his soundness because he enjoys the fuss his owner makes over him. He'll hold up a lame leg and want fuss and cuddles and sympathy. You know when he's going sound again because he forgets which leg it is and holds up the wrong one   Now that I'm certain is a learned behaviour, he has learned to get more fuss by making a big scene out of the sore leg! Clever yes, but downright fraud!!!

I am 100 % sure that horses are clever enough to manipualte us and our emotions / reactions in a multitude of ways. A spoilt horse is just as bad as a spoilt child, they've learned to get their own way by brattishness and tantrums, and yet there is no good physical or emotional reason for the tantrum, they just know that they can manipulate their owner / mother with it. A clever horse is more than capable of schooling their human   It's up to us to be aware of it and clever enough to make it clear to them that we're onto them!!!

Ash, I don't think it's impossible to both hug trees and be authoratitive.   my "precision tool" of choice is my hands and I do huge anmounts of 'work' loose in their field with haylage on the floor so they can wander off and eat if they don't want to play. I trim all three loose in the field and have only myself to work with them, no help either. The colt does have a serreta, but he's tried it on once and we'll present in it at the breed show, otherwise we just lead in a headcollar and show in an arab slip.


Lucie x

[ash]

I also know a horse who lies about his soundness because he enjoys the fuss his owner makes over him. He'll hold up a lame leg and want fuss and cuddles and sympathy. You know when he's going sound again because he forgets which leg it is and holds up the wrong one   Now that I'm certain is a learned behaviour, he has learned to get more fuss by making a big scene out of the sore leg! Clever yes, but downright fraud!!!

I am 100 % sure that horses are clever enough to manipualte us and our emotions / reactions in a multitude of ways. A spoilt horse is just as bad as a spoilt child, they've learned to get their own way by brattishness and tantrums, and yet there is no good physical or emotional reason for the tantrum, they just know that they can manipulate their owner / mother with it. A clever horse is more than capable of schooling their human   It's up to us to be aware of it and clever enough to make it clear to them that we're onto them!!!

Aaaaah but that isn't fraud at all is it?  That horse has found that he is 'rewarded' for that behaviour, so he reproduces it in the hope of getting further rewarded!  He isn't fibbing, he is just very well trained (albeit inadvertantly)!  That is the problem with positive reinforcement.......it works really well!  You just have to be very careful which behaviours you reinforce!

The same goes for 'spoilt' horses.  Some horses also produce undesireable behaviour, simply because they have reaped rewards for it.  That isn't bad behaviour, that is bad training, and exactly what I take to mean by the word 'spoiled'.


It's not that we need to be clever enough to let them know that we are on to them.  Rather we need to be clever (and humble) enough to realise what we have inadvertently trained our horses to do!

[VR]

A total random aside but I thought my missfortune might make you all chuckle at least 

I am just starting my 4 year old off now (he's a Welsh D not an Iberian by the way!) and we've been lunging off the headcollar, he can lean out a little but otherwise nothing major and besides we are only about day 5 into lunging, so all of about 25mins practice in total over the last fortnight. Becky said that he does this because he is unbalanced and to just refresh the movement (i.e transition) and as he gets more balanced he will do it less, so not so worried about it atm. ANYWAY, having dropped in and out of reading this thread, I thought, hmm, maybe I'll give loose schooling Kaz a go  It started well, we were having a play - he was following me alongside, stopping when I did, changing direction as often and as sharply as I did, cool. Then I started to run off to try and get him trotting after me after I had given the vocal command, worked once, twice and then we were at the top end of the school running/trotting back down to the other end ... towards the door ... I went round the corner of the school and carried on running up the long side ... he however didn't follow me around the corner, he carried on straight,  put in one stride of canter and jumped the indoor school door!!  It's about 4ft high and he's barely 14hh!!! He cleared it with plenty of air to spare too - I didn't know whether to be cross or chuffed  He just looked at me afterwards like, oops, you didn't mean that did you mum and sheepishly walked back over to me with his head down low. Norty pony  Needless to say, we will be giving loose work a miss for now - we played the same game again today, but this time whilst he was still attached to a loose lead rein .. just in case! 

[ash]

    Now THAT is what I call a 'Brown Trousers' moment! 

[Tina]

.... grrr I got pulled away by a flying visitor....
Ha VR, that is very funny indeed  
Pikku great tips there. I do have a foot stand but its the funny one of KC Lapiere, its great for hind feet but i find the  cradle made out of polistyrene or whatever it is is awquard for the front legs to use...

And whatever else you do, keep emotion out of it. I know how hard it is, and sometimes I feel that trimming is a bit like driving cars - it gets the worst out of everyone  laugh... but it's SO important. If she does indeed treat the snatching as a game, then by getting angry, annoyed, frustrated or whatever, you allow yourself to be dragged into that game. So breathe and stay calm...

Yes the number of times i had to walk away and kick the wheel barrow.... but you are right losing your temper does not solve any problems, although now that i am working more with her anyway i have found that she responds to a growl or sharp "eeeeeehhhh" when i can feel her starting to pull.
Again that shows that as she is learning other things such as approval noises and disapproval noises from her training you can use it for the trimming sessions as well. I also notice that she is getting more interested in actually pleasing me through that. Bless her.

Basically i also think that my "messages" tend to be more clear as a rider and when working in hand ie close to the horse and get more muddled the further they are away from me. Although it is also a temperament thing , the luso mare i worked with was magical to lunge, I got it down to just a very quiet cluck for upward transitions a kissing sound for canter and a soft whistle for down a gear, and she so wanted to get it right she was faultless, it was very impressive. Gini is more like her mum in that they are both far more argumentative .

Very much like Imevans was describing

Some personalities are simply cheeky and more playful than others, and will try their luck even when they know really what you want. For example:

my two adults - Noosa, hyper-sensitive, intelligent, nervy and anxious by nature, but desperate to please and always keen to try whatever you want to teach her. A real teacher's pet, goodie two shoes type (only with no shoes actually  laugh ). When she gets upset it is for genuine reasons, like misunderstanding or discomfort, she is utterly honest and reacts consistently whatever happens. Tonka on the other hand, laid back, cheeky, easy going, very clever but inherently lazy. Needs serious motivation to do something new, but has an enormous sense of humour (this is the horse that tipped me into the trough when I wasn't looking and then stood shaking his head up and down as if laughing  doh ). He will be a downright brat if he feels like it, stubborn in the extreme, in spite of knowing exactly what I want and not being in any kind of discomfort, he'd just rather be eating in the sun.

I can second that completely, Noosa sounds just like Ollie my luso was and Tonka is Gini, Karina is deep down a sensitive sould but has her off days sometimes and then just kind of looses the plot completely, cause there is a lion out there or sth and she will just go and run the run of death on that lunge until i call her in and assure her she is safe, bless her, she is also the one who whickers when she knows she's done sth very well.

As far as getting communication going clearly, god don't we all just wish to be Klaus Hempfling.... or Bettina Drummond, i have her two in hand videos they are fantastic, she is suuuuch a communicator!
It would be interesting to hear of other characters of horses here and how people go about motivating them etc kind of maybe Klaus is on to sth there with his different personalities. I just don't quite understand how you are supposed to recognise them, is it by the way they look??? I watched his video clips on Youtube and could not make that out, you know the dove , the friend etc I mean you can defo regognise these traits in some horses but then how do you go about figuring out which one it is you have got????Anyone got any ideas?
And even though you can recognize these traits i think it is even more individual than what he comes up with, in that i believe that EVERY horse is a total individual... I am not sure you can put them into categories depending on what shape nose or eye they have do you???

If that was the case Gini would be a monster according to a friend of mine who thinks she has small eyes and that means she is this and that... What do you lot think of that???

[Trudi]

VR that is so cute   and illustrates the thing that so many have said...communication is the game  

What a great thread...I love what everyone's said except I don't think you're a tree-hugger Ash, you just opened your eyes to some other stuff  
The greatest thing I've learned this last year is that the 'attached' work, like lunging, is the cherry on the top rather than the means to finding the cherry. I've said this before (sorry but I think it's important) when you have all the work in place to lunge (liberty particularly), you almost don't need to lunge any more  

Totally agree Tina that it's a good idea to commit to the written word, even if nobody responds (they always kindly do so here) then you at least have it clearer in your mind afterwards. good luck with your lovely young lady.
I don't think you should go into the work place thinking 'this horse is ......brave, cunning, docile, lazy...whatever, just go in there with your eyes wide open and let it develop. Sometimes we try too hard and sometimes our prophecies (oh he's lazy, hot, bored...) have a habit of self fulfilling 

[ChrissieW]

I agree about dominance, its a word I don't like, but haven't found different one to describe my mare.      What do you call a horse that questions every single instruction, is always the leader in any situation in a field of horses, whatever the mix and has supreme confidence in her complete superiority over every living thing.............??   (apart from clever!  )

If you read my blog, you will know I have HUGE respect for this mare and I don't just go in with a label on her head and think the worse of her.

I've read all the Mark Rashid stuff and a lot of clicker stuff and may be in the wild or in larger natural herds you don't get dominance.     Sadly I do believe in domesticity and less natural surroundings you do get dominance - its not a natural behaviour, but then none of us keep our horses in truly natural surroundings.   

What else would you call the fact that whenever my filly is near my mare she mouths and shows submissive behaviour and if she doesn't the mare very quickly shows her displeasure - that is a form of dominance - I just think its a word that conjurs up negative stuff, when actually its quite a natural thing for most living beings to either be controlling or be controlled in some form or other.      Leader is a word I like and I think Minnie sees herself as a leader and a very natural one at that, but where does that leave me - I need to convince her that I am a better leader than she is - just asking her to give up that role won't work, I have to prove to her I am capable and that sometimes entails saying "no I'm right, we do need to do this".

Probably haven't explained myself well, just on a break from meeting at work (oops), so a bit rushed.     

I am 100 % sure that horses are clever enough to manipualte us and our emotions / reactions in a multitude of ways. A spoilt horse is just as bad as a spoilt child, they've learned to get their own way by brattishness and tantrums, and yet there is no good physical or emotional reason for the tantrum, they just know that they can manipulate their owner / mother with it. A clever horse is more than capable of schooling their human    It's up to us to be aware of it and clever enough to make it clear to them that we're onto them!!!

        Sadly Minnie does have me schooled all too well    and maybe this is where a lot of her behaviour stems from, as I said she was spoilt with love and no boundaries as a baby, but I do believe her natural disposition had a huge bearing on her attitude too.

VR - you made me laugh with Kaz's antics 

I do agree PK and Ash that clicker is a good way to train horses and possibly the more intelligent wayward ones, but again it can be really hard to follow this type of training properly in a livery environment and whether its fair on the horse to do so when you can't give it constant freedom of choice etc, is a question that Ben Hart raises in his book and one I hadn't thought of before and actually do agree with.       To create a horse that always expects to be able to express and make their own decisions can in some cases be dangerous, however much we would like to have it that way (and I think in an ideal world we would all like that, well I would anyway).

[ash]

I agree about dominance, its a word I don't like, but haven't found different one to describe my mare.      What do you call a horse that questions every single instruction, is always the leader in any situation in a field of horses, whatever the mix and has supreme confidence in her complete superiority over every living thing.............??   (apart from clever!  )

If you read my blog, you will know I have HUGE respect for this mare and I don't just go in with a label on her head and think the worse of her.

I've read all the Mark Rashid stuff and a lot of clicker stuff and may be in the wild or in larger natural herds you don't get dominance.     Sadly I do believe in domesticity and less natural surroundings you do get dominance - its not a natural behaviour, but then none of us keep our horses in truly natural surroundings.

I agree with this.  I think 'dominance type' behaviour becomes more obvious in unstable environments like livery yards, where the 'herd' is often changing, and where resources are limited., and horses often have to compete a bit more for food.

What else would you call the fact that whenever my filly is near my mare she mouths and shows submissive behaviour and if she doesn't the mare very quickly shows her displeasure - that is a form of dominance - I just think its a word that conjurs up negative stuff, when actually its quite a natural thing for most living beings to either be controlling or be controlled in some form or other.      Leader is a word I like and I think Minnie sees herself as a leader and a very natural one at that, but where does that leave me - I need to convince her that I am a better leader than she is - just asking her to give up that role won't work, I have to prove to her I am capable and that sometimes entails saying "no I'm right, we do need to do this".

But it is becoming increasingly clear that those horses which display the most dominance type behaviour are in fact not those which would be considered 'leaders' (although the whole concept of a 'lead' horse is also questionable), as they tend to be avoided by the others.  Whereas those horses who display non-dominant/aggressive behaviour are those which other horses tend to want to be around.

I do agree PK and Ash that clicker is a good way to train horses and possibly the more intelligent wayward ones, but again it can be really hard to follow this type of training properly in a livery environment and whether its fair on the horse to do so when you can't give it constant freedom of choice etc, is a question that Ben Hart raises in his book and one I hadn't thought of before and actually do agree with.       To create a horse that always expects to be able to express and make their own decisions can in some cases be dangerous, however much we would like to have it that way (and I think in an ideal world we would all like that, well I would anyway).

If you get a chance to look at Alex Kurland's stuff, (if you are interested, you can borrow my vids) you will see that she has worked in a livery situation with some horses that could be considered very dangerous.  However, the work begins, in one horse's case, simply over the stable door.  People who clicker train their horses are not a bunch of Kamikaze pilots.  It is possible to let a horse express it's opinion, without their behaviour becoming dangerous.  That is the point I was trying to make when I said that if you take notice of the 'small' signals the horse is giving you, there is never any need for those signals to become big (and dangerous).

Also, I think that when a horse feels that it's options and freedom are restricted, it is more likely to resort to 'big' behaviours.  My little Arab filly is very reactive, and I feel so much safer working with her loose, so that if she feels she needs to get away, she can, but if she does, it is interesting to note that she actually doesn't go very far, just far enough to put her back in the comfort zone.

Obviously this isn't possible for everyone, and I agree that clicker training is something that can't just be picked up on a whim. 

[ChrissieW]

But it is becoming increasingly clear that those horses which display the most dominance type behaviour are in fact not those which would be considered 'leaders' (although the whole concept of a 'lead' horse is also questionable), as they tend to be avoided by the others.  Whereas those horses who display non-dominant/aggressive behaviour are those which other horses tend to want to be around.

Yes I've read that too (Mark Rashid again - I'm a huge fan), but his descriptions just don't fit what I see with Minnie.       From his writings a lot of his observations are made on large herds again.        As I say she has always been the leader in any herd she's been in, she's the respected one that the others follow, look to, go to for confidence, worry when she isn't in the field, she also worries when any of her "herd" are missing and this can include horses outside of her actual field boundaries, but ones that she sees as in her herd.     

However she is also always in control of the movement of the herd and can sometimes display this in a very obvious way, challengers get short shrift and put in their place, but she isn't an aggressive lacking on confidence type horse - ie one that will bully or go in guns blazing because they want to get before they get got.       She just knows how she wants things and goes about making sure everyone knows that in as quiet or as loud a manner as is necessary.     

When she was a very young horse, she was the only mare out of a field of 14 that took a partially blind elderly horse under her wing and despite at that time being too young (4) and therefore not the leader of the herd, she fought her position to allow the elderly mare to drink at the trough unpestered. 

I do get where you are coming from Ash, I've pondered and mithered and worried myself over most of it and still do, but what I read doesn't equate to Minnie - maybe she is as I've always believe a one off!!! 

I tell you Daisy is a breath of fresh air so far, she is SO uncomplicated and normal compared to Minnie! 

Minnie is certainly a tough nut to crack that's for sure, but its why I worry a lot when I read about youngsters showing undesired behaviours and possibly not being set right, as I do think a lot of her issues come from being allowed to be a brat (sorry very human term) between the ages of 1 - 4.     

I have read some Alexander Kurkland stuff  and used a lot of her ideas to train Minnie in the basics of clicker training, targets etc to re-direct undesired behaviour (as a 4 year old she probably would have been termed dangerous, she would bite and kick at the slightest suggestion of being asked to do something she didn't want and it was not fear based, it was she believed an acceptable way to communicate - a bit like a small child that has never been shown that biting to say no is not really well mannered).    She's mostly an absolute pleasure to own nowadays at 15, but I do still struggle with her endless quest to stay on her own agenda (and believe me she DOES have one).     

I am pro clicker, I will be honest and say I find it impossible to use 100%, but maybe that is due to my goals/impatience and in an ideal world I would take everything back to the bare bones and start again.      I might well do that yet with Minnie, but life isn't that unbearable for either of us that I feel the need to.   

Like you, where I can I train Daisy free and also find her very sensitive to feeling trapped, but rightly or wrongly I also agree with Lmevans that sometimes a horse just needs to do what is asked no questions for their safety and ours and I do believe that this also should be trained as nicely as possible at as early an age as possible.

I suppose then it comes down to keeping our end of the agreement and not abusing that training by putting the horse in a situation it cannot cope with.

You'll be pleased to know though that I'm not done with clicker training and Minnie yet, we aren't dedicated followers, but I do feel it can unlock a few things with her yet - trouble is she is FAR FAR cleverer than I am so clicker can be a dangerous tool in that respect 

Sorry Tina - have taken your thread slightly off track! 

[ash]

Minnie sounds to me like a bit of a 'mother hen' (without meaning to get all 'Klaus', and try to pigeonhole her ), and is actually showing particularly cohesive behaviour, rather than dominant, which is maybe why the other horses find her so attractive.  Her intelligence will also make her more attractive in this respect.  I don't doubt what you see, but dominant behaviour is mainly used to drive other horses away, Minnie sounds like a horse that wants the opposite, which is why I would question your interpretation (in a respectful manner obviously, hell, she's your horse, you know her better than anyone!).  She sounds like a very, very special mare. 

I don't think it is possible to train using 100% positive reinforcement, we will always have to use some pressure and negative reinforcement, particularly if we ride our horses.  However, my own personal goal is to try and keep them to a minimum. 

[ChrissieW]

which is why I would question your interpretation (in a respectful manner obviously, hell, she's your horse, you know her better than anyone!). 

That's fine Ash, no offence taken, I'm still trying to work her out after 11 years, she is what has led me to this site and others and I still think I need to change a lot of what I do because of her.

I've never liked the term dominant at all (I prefer Matriarch) and whilst I do use it on occasion (probably in the early years when I was bitten and kicked twice by the darn animal!!!  ), to me she's just her and yes she is a right mother hen, but she can drive out too.      New horses to her herd get the full on drive out to the edges till she figures them out treatment.

Although she is very determined in her own line of thinking in handling and ridden work and questions a lot, even though I think we have a fairly good relationship - she will do most things for me, but you always get the feeling she wants to add "but.....I know a better way...."     Maybe she does and I should start listening eh......        I'm always on the quest for ways to make life easier for us both, as it hasn't been easy and she has taught me a huge amount about myself (some of which I didn't like  ).

So I really don't know, I think domestication has a lot to answer for and sometimes its difficult to label our horses nowadays in the more natural horsemanship/behaviourist terms because of the way they are kept, often sadly in very unnatural conditions and I do count my horses in that, since I'm in the extremely highly populated south east, where grazing land is a premium 

I'd so so love to have acres of perfect fields to have them on in large herds and then really watch their behaviour as I do believe it would be different.

I need to rediscover AK stuff a bit, as she is the one that started me investigating Clicker stuff.

Trouble with me is I have a butterfly brain and am always going "oooh that system sounds good" which probably doesn't help! 

[ash]

Maybe Minnie is trying to tell you that she wants to have a foal.