starting youngster lungeing in headcollar

[Tina]

Hi all! I have run into a moral dilemma.... I have been playing with Gini, my young horse and lungeing her for some while now. She is a little madam I lunge her with her bridle sometimes and mostly with just her headcollar. I used to use a serreta to start young horses on the lunge and then progressed to lungeing on bit for a while and then just in headcollar. Now with Gini i don't know i just can't bring myself to use those any more, even though they teach a horse very quickly to be quiet on the lunge. So Gini basically keeps pulling about quite a lot, she is getting better with it and it is worse on her bad side which is to the right, although that could be because it is my weak lunge side also.... What happens is that she shakes her head particularly when asked to go into canter and particularly on the right and to counter act i have to kind of pull a few times before where i know she will be doing it, she always does it on a particular place on the circle.

I am also adverse to using side reins on her although i am at a loss as to how she will learn about contact.... As i said i have usually started horses differently, but when i put side reins on her and see her struggle (and they are loose!!) I just have not got the heart to keep them on....   Am i going too soppy?? Should i go back to the traditional way? Am I causing more grief persevering like this? I know they usually stop fighting when you put a serreta on very quickly and then settle, but in a way it kind of also subdues them so much.... I just cannot bring myself to do it to her, she is such a spirited lovely little clown 

I guess she is kind of special to me, as she will be probably my last horse (age...) and i pulled her out of her mum and saw her every day from baby onwards and so love her bit whiley spirit...

She has been overindulged by both her brother and mother in the past a bit as well, so is bit headstrong i guess.... Once she got a bit too much and i did a join up as result, but swore to never do that again. The dejected confused look on her face made me stop very quickly 
That was last year, when she was a lot worse, she is now getting to be really sweet. Both mares are also joined at the hip literally and working either apart is a challenge to say the least. Not that the one that is with you is the problem, rather the one in the stable freaking out completely!! Gini has to be locked in with the top shut or she breaks out of her stable completely, Karina is not quite as bad but screams all the time. And it is not getting any better. Her son was the same, but because i had 3 horses it was not so bad.
I had Karina, Gawain and a luso filly that had grown up with Gawain at home and never had this problem until i sold the filly after that it was Gawain who started the screaming. They have learned that being together is not to be taken for granted and that sometimes someone won't come back. Now since Gawain was sold it has gotten worse as i said, it near killed me selling him 
I felt that i had ripped a family apart it was horrible but we struggled for money at the time.

I am currently backing Gini with view of doing some 1/2 hour hacks with her sometime later this summer nothing streneous as she is still growing a lot. She is very sweet about me sitting on her, in fact it was the non event of the century , but then of course she has no clue about any of the aids as yet so walking was a struggle and steering non existent  I am working a bit with her in hand to teach her forward and sideways and prepare for the leg aids, I know i should be long reining her but hate that always get into muddle even though these horses don't seem to mind when you are there all thumbs and fingers, or reins and sticks rather 
So how do you start your babies?? 

[Tina]

I've put in some pics to illustrate the problem, there are some pics showing her when she is settling to it a big one showing what i have on her for control and a few showing the kind of THINGS she gets up to, which i know are normal for a baby to do, just as i said don't know how to persuade her to be NICE...   if i clip on to the bit, yes i will get CONTROL very quickly, same goes for serreta, but somehow i feel i also will BREAK her  which is what i don't want to do.... help ...

[Tina]

BUT  i also worry about tugging her on the headcollar......

[ash]

Totally off the wall idea here, but how about taking all the tack off and trying some liberty stuff?

If you find that your work becomes all about control, then is it possible that some steps have been missed out, and it might be worth back tracking and working on your relationship a bit?

I really hope you don't think I am being rude, I certainly don't mean to be in the slightest, but if you are thinking of resorting to harsh tack for control, and to get her to 'stop fighting', then maybe there is a physical issue or a training issue that needs to be resolved?

I have never started a horse in my life, and in fact have just bought my  first youngster (a 2yo), so I may be talking out my butt here.  However, if I was getting extreme behaviour like you describe (fighting etc.) I would assume I have taken things too fast for my horse.

I really hope you don't think I am being rude.  This is just my gut reaction to your post.

[ukica]

I would use a lunging cavesson with her and dont feel guilty about it.

I would also do more lunging in walk and just small amount of trot as i guess she is off balance and therefore running too fast.  So slow down.

She is probably very stiff like most young horses, so some bending work with her in hand would help.

Download the free e book by Marijke de Jong, here is the link to it in the books recommendation section;

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,40053.0.html

It is invaluable and has all the info you need for starting young horses from scratch to high school movements  (and it must be OK as Heather made it a sticky thread)!!

Good luck

[catkin]

How is she being led? does she start, stop, turn, keeping step with you on a long loose lead rope. You can then get further away, walking in circles with them and hey presto, they've got the rudiment of lunging.
I longrein/double lunge all my babies because I'm better at it than lunging - but they start only when they are used to walking alongside 'in their own space'. I start with a headcollar, then cavesson or dually then bit. Use a driving saddle pad as a roller and get the reins up to the terrets as soon as they understand about 'steering' - it's a lot easier once the reins are over the back. (Becky H on here is an absolute genius at this work - ask her)
For lunging they all seem to like a Wels pattern cavesson best - it doesn't have a joint in the middle of the nose where the ring is so it doesn't pinch the nose.

[Trudi]

Totally off the wall idea here, but how about taking all the tack off and trying some liberty stuff?

If you find that your work becomes all about control, then is it possible that some steps have been missed out, and it might be worth back tracking and working on your relationship a bit?

I don't think you're off the wall Ash, that's just how I've started my latest baby and I'm really pleased with the results, I'm on board now and it's going well.

Lovely mare Tina, how old is she?

[Belbe]

Ash. I'm with you on this one! I have just tested all the "theory" you mentioned on my lil stallion and it all works.

When the horse starts pulling away from you, he's not working with you! it's always the problem. If the horse is with you, on his stiff side, he falls in, not out. It can be because tack is hurting or somethin else is distressing the horse, but in the end, the horse isn't working with you. Adding more tack is just getting the horse to listen to the tack, not really you. Once you rule out external influences, it's yourself you have to address. (I tried a snaffle on my colt and he totally lost his usual spear sharp focus! Was so entartained in chewing the damned thing that he was responding with a dial-up connection lag!  )
 
I just tried this "theory" on another baby stallion that was thought to be a "rebbel". 2 hard tugs on the headcollar and some body language, plus adding variety and interest to the lungeing scheme and he imediately stoped pulling! I can't really explain what I did, I remmember noticing he wasn't paying attention and would drag me on the next second so before he did I tugged back and swelled up my ego: hey! you working with me or the neighbour man!?? whenever he was clearly looking and paying all his attention to me I smiled and praised. With mares you have to wither down your "ego" to a level where they still see you as the leader, but also that you clearly respect them. With mares I find that showing respect and understanding is paranount. What I mean is, you don't just boss them around, you order politely and you understand when they don't do it right, you don't scold (you may say, nono that's not it, but without emotion), you try to ask again in a diffrent way that will almost guarantee they get it right this time. Mares are much more indulging in boring work than stallions, so long as you respect them. (all hale geldings!   )

Loose work first if possible is also invaluable! My cousin is working loads on that! like keeping the loose horse focused and working with her while a bucket of sweet feed is resting inside the school. Her boy is a gem, but when he sees mares or anything else of great interest, he totally forgets she exists! that can't be! hence the exercises.

On the contact issue, I don't like to do it on the lunge. I've been following Philippe Karl's suggestion on that one. First I explain what the different aids mean with my fingers on the rings standing still on the ground, then work in hand with both reins (one over the neck) to repeat the same in motion and if you trust your horse, try it with long reins at the walk but close to the bum. When all that works well I do it under saddle. The horse's head will quiet down as he gains balance, no point forcing it.
Personally I'm schoolin and hacking out without the snaffle as the horse is sensitive enough on the halter, but he did well in the snaffle too, just enjoyed chewing it too much and ruined both apple taste snaffles! gotta buy a normal one...  

[issywizz]

Lovely horse Tina 
Yes very much agree with Ash-the best way is to fence yourself of a schooling area thats around 10-15m square and work the horse at liberty until she has learnt to stay with you and respond to your body signals so that you then use a line for finesse-not force.
Once you can do that then use a lungeing cavesson on her and you can start to ask for a good connection and have her work to the contact.
I would personally never lunge in a serrata ( assuming we are talking about the uncovered , serrated version? ) nor off the bridle.
I would also work in hand a lot-I dont actually like longlining babies ( probably because I am nowhere near as good as Becky  ) I prefer to work from the shoulder as I find it easier.

[shoveltrash]

all good advice - i agree with Ash as well.
i want to add:  LOVELY mare!!!
could it be partially that she is unbalanced?  lungeing on a 20m circle is tough, and sometimes if asked for too much horses react like you describe.  i'd definitely do some liberty work with her (i started my boy like this too). 
an alternative is have a 2nd person (like they do at the SRS).  one person lunges, the other leads. 
i'm another one who would never lunge off the bit, nor a serrata.  and i simply cannot long line , i'm pitifully inadequate.  however taking things very very slowly, teaching verbal cues, and developing balance along with body language goes a long way toward helping the backing process .

[Tina]

Thanks for the tips  ! No Ash, I don't think you are rude    How long do you think can one lunge a 3 yr old anyhow? I try and keep it short to sort of 10 - 15 mins, same with loose schooling. No Sarah its not an uncovered serreta, no way would i use that on any horse ever....  And its not a control issue as such, more of a "hey mum i can't be bothered with this lets go that way" sort of thing.

 She is lovely to lead,has been handled to death   since baby. I have no control problems with her at all and a lovely relationship, I keep my horses at my own farm and spend a great deal of time with them in the day just hanging out anyhow, they come to whistle any time of the day and are both very good to handle. She can do a rein back, half pass , renvers, shoulder in , counter shoulder in with just one lunge rein already although all still bit wobbly, she tood to all that with gusto and speed.

 I have trimmed her feet since she was a baby myself as well, she can be a madam with that too, it took 2 yrs for her to stop throwing herself on the floor in protest  and she is still often unco operative with it    ... we are talking headstrong horse here but only with certain things!!! She also stays with me when i lead beautifully, even when spooked or distracted by other things, does not pull in hand, bit dim about trotting alongside (way too exciting sometimes  ; or donkey mode other times  ) ) I do loose schooling with her as well , which she seems to be getting a bit now and uses that for showing off quite a lot. She can be very idle on the lunge as well until she gets going. See, its exactly this tugging on headcollar, that i was worried about, obviously if you use a covered serreta or a bridle you only have to do this with a LITTLE force whereas with the headcollar you have to be stronger... i was worried that it may cause damage basically, that's where i was wondering whether in the long run it would not be better to use the bit for example if that means you have to tugg less hard????
Its like this with her, you start lungeing, she is not going forward enough, you make THE POINT and then she does this headshake, you know the snakey thing!!?? Basically she is throwing a paddy at that point, its her way to protest. I don't know how to explain it, but its really annoying, I don't want her to get whiplash... and it has not stopped even though i have been lungeing her regularly now for the past year or so. I think the point about balance is probably very relevant, which is basically the point of lungeing so its probably going to get better once she starts to get stronger. I have started 6 horses of this breed now but have never come accross one like Gini, who has resisted so persistently. What sort of cavesson would be suitable for a very slim headed horse like her, i have not used a cavesson in years... Any ideas of a good make, i quit on them as the one i had was so unwhieldy and clonky.

Reading all this now, maybe i should just not lunge her????!!!! She does not like it... Maybe I should just start going out for little hacks with her ??? And loose school her the rest of the time and play with her further in hand, as that works really well with her. Its just lungeing teaches them balance and gets them strong over the back .... now I am more confused than ever   I am actually very tempted to just hop on and start doing short trips with her, she LOVES going out with Karina, in fact last time my husband was over i put him on Karina and i led Gini out and when we turned back Gini rooted to the spot and did not want to go back , she wanted to carry on exploring, bless her. Do you think its mad to go out on a youngster without schooling first?

[Tina]

Belbe i think you got a big point with the "mare " thing , Karina , her mum flips if you put too much pressure on her or if you are being unfair with anything she will whicker to me and tell me off  she is quite incredible like that. Also if you praise her she'll "talk" back at me and tries to come in for a treat  she is very very sweet like that. I love my mares they are the best 

[Belbe]

Reading all this now, maybe i should just not lunge her????!!!! She does not like it... Maybe I should just start going out for little hacks with her ??? And loose school her the rest of the time and play with her further in hand, as that works really well with her. Its just lungeing teaches them balance and gets them strong over the back .... now I am more confused than ever   I am actually very tempted to just hop on and start doing short trips with her, she LOVES going out with Karina, in fact last time my husband was over i put him on Karina and i led Gini out and when we turned back Gini rooted to the spot and did not want to go back , she wanted to carry on exploring, bless her. Do you think its mad to go out on a youngster without schooling first?

I don't know the horse but reading this last post maybe I'd try that. My mare for instance finds lungeing as boring as hell. I can ask for no more than 2-3 turns at each gait without killing her with tedium. So I warm her up loose playing tag, practicing sliding stops and so forth and then just lunge those 2-3 turns to practice speed, gait and rythm changes and stop there. All the other work is done inhand by the shoulder or ridden. That's how she's happy, so that's how we're happy. My colt for instance can endure much more without getting bored because he's easy to buy! so long as he knows you're carrying treats he'll put up with almost anything. women are't that easy...  

Anyway, i wouldn't worry about giving a tug on a halter, it doesn't hurt and well used works like a whip, you seldom use it at all. It just serves to draw ttention, though the way you describe your mare I think talking to her verbally or with some body language would do the trick even better, as you say she's not so much evading you but just complaining. Try to fing what best soothes and pleases her to reward everytime you tell her to stop complaining and she does. My colt for instance likes to be neck hugged... weird, i know, but works like a gem. It's like, my body language is almost aggressive and very strict when he complains and as soon as he stops I turn all jolly happy and hug him! black and white! some horses only work like that. My mare has to be worked in medium grey and less medium grey...Try different things! something will suit her!

[ash]

I have trimmed her feet since she was a baby myself as well, she can be a madam with that too, it took 2 yrs for her to stop throwing herself on the floor in protest  and she is still often unco operative with it   

Right, I feel like I am stepping out of line again, but I am going to say this anyway.  You say that she is well handled, and you have a lovely relationship etc.  However, if I had a horse that regularly threw itself down when being trimmed, I would say there are handling issues there, I am sorry.  If at the age of three, there are still trimming issues, then I would say that the problem perhaps has not been adressed.

I am fast becoming one of those tree-hugging hippy types that don't believe that horses do things deliberately to be awkward, and that if she is 'being a madam' about something, then there is an issue somewhere that needs to be adressed.  Trying to deal with the situation using whatever piece of tack is in fact just papering over the cracks, and not dealing with the issue of why she is behaving like she does.

As I have said before, you have much more experience than I of starting young horses, so maybe I am just coming across as a cheeky young whippersnapper.  However, everything that you have written suggests to me that actually everything about her basic handling really isn't fine, and perhaps you need to go back and build some basic foundations again.  She sounds like a very 'young' three to me, perhaps just too young for what you are asking?

[issywizz]

Is she 3 then?
I wouldnt even work a 3 yr old-get her used to stuff and do a bit of on hand hacking etc but not actual 'work'.
And definitely not loads of trotting on the lunge-a little yes,but not loads.
You ask whether its mad to go out exploring without schooling first,why not take her out exploring in hand? that would be a really useful thing to do and wouldnt put the stresses on her body that carrying a rider at 3 ( before many of the growth plates are closed) would.
I have a SRS cavesson which is very very nice and gives a good contact but they are expensive,somebody else,happy horses I think,found a similar one cheaper.Ideally you want a metal band that is jointed at the sides and has good soft leather padding-the covered serratas are still very sharp if they are the serrated ones and that will teach your horse to avoid the contact.
Anyway,just my opinion but I would take her hacking in hand and not much else other than some liberty work/basic manners/work in hand now until she is 4.