Manuel Trigo clinic report

[Heather]

How odd Christina, most folks know how to skip, and I have never seen anyone not just skip without effort, making the uphill jump. It would feel terribly awkward to do it any other way. Must try it later when I go back up to the yard!!

Re the shoulder in, I cannot understand why trainers make so much confusion over it. Desi Lorent taught us merely to turn our shoulders to the inside, so that the outside hip is pointing down the track in line with the horse's outside shoulder. By applying the inside leg with the swing of the belly, (release the leg as the belly swings back, but dont let it ping off it takes the outside hip in the forwards and diagonal movement of the shoulder in, so that you are in complete sync with the horse. There is no twist in the body, makes no sense as it prevents the flow of your movement with that of the horse!

Aaarrghh, weight on the OUTSIDE for travers? You are weighting against the direction of travel and stopping your hips from moving! Makes no sense whatsoever!! Think about it- say travers to the right, why would you want to put your weight to the left to make a movement that is forwards and diagonal?

In travers right, your body would be three quarters facing the wall, but head turned to allow eyes to look down the track. Outside leg behind girth, applied again, with the swing of the belly, advances the inside seatbone without effort, in the forwards and diagonal movement of travers (and renvers and half pass, all the same movement) accentuating a little weight on the inside seatbone in the direction of travel.

Using the leg in this way, means that you are using it at precisely the moment the leg comes under and across, as though you are 'scooping up' the horse's outside leg ( or inside, in the case of shoulder in or leg yield) at the optimum moment to increase the engagement.

These photos are of an ex racehorse I worked with only three times, once at a demo for the BHS, when he was just two months off the track, totally unschooled, and then at our conference, two months later, when he had put on condition, but had no further schooling.


First pic, owner up.

Me, about 10 mins later

Another 10 mins later

His first ever shoulder in

Shoulder in

2 months later, leg yield

Leg yield

Purely because the aids I was giving him worked entirely with him, he was able to understand and move in a way that made him look like a far more educated horse! I only wish I had had the space to take him on, as she sold him a few months after, for only £1200!!! He would have made a fantastic dressage horse!

Heather

[issywizz]

Nice pics Heather 

[shoveltrash]

yes, VERY nice!

[Heather]

Thanks folks! He was VERY nice too and I just wish I could have had more time to work with him.

[christuris]

Re the shoulder in, I cannot understand why trainers make so much confusion over it. Desi Lorent taught us merely to turn our shoulders to the inside, so that the outside hip is pointing down the track in line with the horse's outside shoulder. By applying the inside leg with the swing of the belly, (release the leg as the belly swings back, but dont let it ping off it takes the outside hip in the forwards and diagonal movement of the shoulder in, so that you are in complete sync with the horse. There is no twist in the body, makes no sense as it prevents the flow of your movement with that of the horse!

Aaarrghh, weight on the OUTSIDE for travers? You are weighting against the direction of travel and stopping your hips from moving! Makes no sense whatsoever!! Think about it- say travers to the right, why would you want to put your weight to the left to make a movement that is forwards and diagonal?

Well, it seems I misunderstood Manuel (yet again!)  His English is pretty fluent, but it's difficult to understand, plus the fact that I have a hard time visualizing what he's saying,especially during a time when my brain is half fried!!!  So here we go again:  this time I understood that you weight the inside seatbone in shoulder-in, with the inside seatbone a tad back (so facing inside), together with the inside leg (conflicts with leg at the girth that I've been taught recently).  So in fact, the hips aren't actually facing to the outside, they are just a little less pointing to the inside than the shoulders are.  And it worked a charm.  

About travers, I haven't a clue, but it seems that he would want you to push into the direction of travel, unlike PK who wants you to sit in the direction of travel.  Racinet talks about it in his book "Another Horsemanship" on page 12, and has arguments for why one would want to do it one way or the other, depending on the situation.  But generally, in dressage, he plumps for the weighting of the pushing side.

When I told Manuel that I thought I had finally got it he said, and I quote:


Don´t listen people (including me!), listen your horses, they are telling you if it is correct or not. If you can get what you want in lightness….it is more than correct!. Otherwise it´s wrong even if Gods say the opposite.

Incidentally, here's the link for the photos that finally arrived a day or so ago.  The first one of Comet and me is on page 2, bottom right.  Was not happy when I first looked at them, and then I thought, well, at least his front end is a lot lighter.  But we do need to work on that pelvic tuck!!!  When in doubt about which horse, he's the black horse who looks as though there's a big scary monster about to attack him -- check out that portrait photo.

http://www.livingimagescjw.com/CLIENTS/10Lightness1/10Lightness1-1.htm

And here is a series of photos I took of another group doing the level one Lightness clinic on June 26/27..I'm going to audit the level two clinic at the end of July, and hopefully take photos again.  Comet and I may do the second level two one at the end of September, but I have to make sure he can handle the loudspeakers by then...he will be heavily doped if not!!!

http://alphabetranch.smugmug.com/Horse-Events/Manuel-Trigo-Clinics-in/Manuel-Trigo-Lighness-Level-1/12707126_CAGEv#914788572_3owLe

Just for giggles, here's a post I put up on Manuel's list this morning, after a fun weekend playing with the boys:

On Saturday, I had decided that since I now know how shoulder-in is supposed to
be done, I would try to get right canter lead from Comet from the counter
shoulder-in left, as Racinet and others have advised. Well, he did it a couple
of times, but kicking and screaming all the way! He would keep on taking the
left lead, even though he was totally bent the wrong way, so I don't know how he
managed to stay upright! It was as though he was saying, there's NO way you can
make me take my right lead!

But yesterday was a TREAT! I managed to do some in-hand work with Comet in my
driveway area, backing up the embankment (hind legs spread WIDE apart, as usual,
even if I took it one step at a time!) and decided to try some jambette, which I
do once in a blue moon (read once a year or less!) He ended up doing a sort of
pawing jambette, but was very agreeable about it, and I expect it will come back
to previous levels if I practice it more... Then to my little picadero to do
some under-saddle work. We went through all our Lightness exercises and
finished up trying some left canter lead work from the counter shoulder-in
right. NO WAY, JOSE!!!! Just wouldn't do it, so I tried the regular way, bent
correctly, and he did it like a charm, as he always does! (So why try to force
THAT one?!) So I went to the right lead attempt from the counter shoulder-in,
and he did it three times in a row -- no going into the left lead this time!
And so we called it a day.

Then I did the same work with Xino in the driveway, in hand, and he offered me
some lovely jambette, and even did a few steps of Spanish Walk without me really
asking for it as such. The other leg just sort of followed suit! So then we
went to the picadero to do some under-saddle work, and ended up trying for the
jambette under saddle. Well, he lifted himself up and went right in to Spanish
Walk when I tapped his right leg!!!!! I was dumbfounded! I asked again, just
to make sure it wasn't a fluke or anything, and he did it again, several steps!
I was riding on cloud nine by then, as you can imagine! And only on Friday
evening was his right hip all gummed up again, before managing to right it quite
a bit by doing lateral in-hand work. That was the same evening that Comet
decided to colic -- mildly, luckily, but it was a long one -- over an hour.

So, after such a bleak Friday evening, I had such a wonderful two days with both
boys, and even though I couldn't go out on trails because the weather was so
threatening, we got a lot accomplished just by working at home. I'm still on
cloud nine!!!

I'm off to school them again this evening after the heat lets off a bit --its 80 degrees up here, way too hot for me, but it's ten degrees or more cooler than Denver is!

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
www.AlphabetRanch.com

[Heather]

I do not teach pushing with the seat in lateral work at all , Christina, in fact I dont teach weight aids in lateral work, as I find it makes the rider tend to collapse a hip. If you use the leg with the swing of the belly, closing as it swings away and releasing ( but without it pinging off the sides) as the belly swings towards, it automatically takes the seat in the direction of the movement fluidly and effortlessly, also placing a little more weight on the leading seatbone momentarily at each stride, so you do not have to consciously do it- it happens automatically.

But for me, in shoulder in, the leading seatbone is the outside one, as if you use your right leg, say in right shoulder in as the belly swings to the left, it will take your left seatbone diagonally forwards, so that the left hip also points down the track in line with the horse's outside shoulder.

I find this works on every horse I ride, in fact even horses that have not yet been taught it, as that racehorse, do it with ease. It was the aid that Desi Lorent taught me, and I havent gone away from his teaching all these years.

[christuris]

That makes total sense, Heather, and it's what I stirve to do, once I've stopped all the exaggerating!  I try to follow the belly in any and all gaits and maneuvers, and that's probably the answer to all my questions, if I would only stop and think about it a bit more...  But I want to stop thinking, and just do it, so following the belly will just make it happen naturally!

Thanks!

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
www.AlphabetRanch.com