debunking fructans

[acb.antonia]

Thanks very much for this thread. 

rvialls, can you recommend any books in particular which are a good round up of information for laminitis. 

Also do you think it's unfair to turn a horse out in a muzzle?  It seems unfair to me but then my horses get border line lami every year without fail.

[Cloud_cirrus]

Not Richard, but as someone with ponies who spend a lot of time in muzzles I feel qualified to answer your question.

I thought long and hard about the use of muzzles, particularly with the problems associated with them, eg rubbing, and the fact that turning anything out in a headcollar/muzzle has an element of risk.  Eventually I decided that the alternative for me at the time, was either to restrict them to a stable, which meant they were isolated, turn them out together in a very small restricted paddock, or allow them access to a bigger area but wearing muzzles.

I discounted the stable option. I tried the restricted paddock option building a paddock with electric fencing which I could then extend as required, the little wotsits soon worked out all sorts of methods to get over/under it (I never knew a 11.2hh could clear 3'6" until I witnessed it first hand!!).  We then built a more permanent structure with wooden posts and thick tape but although we were religous about picking droppings up every day, we saw an increase in eggs in the poo samples.

We are now lucky enough to be at a yard where we can have a compromise situation.  The ponies are turned out in the early morning in their paddocks with muzzles, they then come in at lunch time to a wood chippings and sand area in the afternoons and the muzzles come off.  They are currently in at night.

Even if I didn't have this set up though, I think I would still prefer them out and running around, wearing a muzzle, to going down with lamintis or being kept in.

[rvialls]

rvialls, can you recommend any books in particular which are a good round up of information for laminitis

Not really no Sadly, there is so much misinformation out there on the subject of laminitis that pretty much any book you buy is going to be giving you bad advice. To quote Chris Pollitt (a respected researcher in the field of laminitis) "Half of laminitis science is incorrect - but which half?"

do you think it's unfair to turn a horse out in a muzzle?

I think Cloud_cirrus has already answered this very well. Just to re-iterate though, I'd ask which is more unfair: having to work a bit harder to get grass because you have a muzzle on, or being in severe pain because of laminitis? I don't like muzzles really, but if the alternative is laminitis, there's no contest in my view.

[acb.antonia]

Isn't laminitis so crap,  picking the best solution out of a bunch of bad ones.

I would agree with you CC that under those circumstances a muzzle seems fairest but I'm wondering what is THE best solution, with the knowledge we have at present, to keeping a laminitic?  Is there such a thing? 

I read a bit about Jaime Jacksons Paddock Paradise (haven't read the book though) and thought he had good ideas for keeping the horses moving.  I hadn't realised that they ought to be walking 15 or so miles per day, before that.  However it's difficult to incorporate his ideas into 4 acres of land.  I am looking to move at the moment and am hoping I will get land that is better suited to laminitics.

In the meantime I should probably rethink the muzzle idea.

[Appy2quarter]

In an ideal world, I'd rather not have my horse in a muzzle, but sadly the world is often not ideal 

My horse has been muzzled on and off for 5-6 years and its been okay.  Yes, I've had to amend them, work out the right padding etc but at least he can be out all night, moving around. 

Watching him grazing, I think he's doing fine and actually I think I end up being more worried about him than he is about the muzzle.

[loosefur]

Isn't laminitis so crap,  picking the best solution out of a bunch of bad ones.

I would agree with you CC that under those circumstances a muzzle seems fairest but I'm wondering what is THE best solution, with the knowledge we have at present, to keeping a laminitic?  Is there such a thing? 

I read a bit about Jaime Jacksons Paddock Paradise (haven't read the book though) and thought he had good ideas for keeping the horses moving.  I hadn't realised that they ought to be walking 15 or so miles per day, before that.  However it's difficult to incorporate his ideas into 4 acres of land.  I am looking to move at the moment and am hoping I will get land that is better suited to laminitics.

In the meantime I should probably rethink the muzzle idea.

You can make a great Paddock Paradise with 4 acres - or even less. In fact it's a great way to best utilise land when you haven't got much of it. Have you seen this website:

http://paddockparadise.wetpaint.com/page/Paddock+Paradise

If you look at the videos there are loads of great exampples of what people have done with their own places... lots of examples of PP's on small areas

[acb.antonia]

I've ordered that book now, wanted it for a while.  Has anybody else tried to incorporate these ideas into their pastures?  Is it a good idea to use these track ideas for laminitics, even shod ones?

I don't intend to be at my current property for more than 6 months so don't want to start investing in digger hire, membranes and agregates.  I would like to make some tracks in the fields with electric fencing but they would be on grass. 

I was interested to read in equi ads (after reading this thread about laminitis being more than just a calorie problem) about a feed company called Thunderbrook  http://thunderbrook.co.uk/ who sound like they are trying to make good honest horse feed, which should help meet the needs of a laminitic.  Has anyone got any experience of using this feed or know anything about the company?  Just wondering if it's the usual marketing talk or actually any good?

[rvialls]

Has anybody else tried to incorporate these ideas into their pastures?

The problem with paddock paradise in the UK is mud. In the large parts of the USA, it's easy to create a track system that stays as a sensible track. If you create a track around the edge of most UK fields, it's 6 inches deep mud by the end of the winter. That said, with a bit of inginuity it can be done. I've come across several paddock paradise systems or systems inspired by paddock paradise - and they can definitely help. Anything that increases movement while managing the amount of available grass is a good thing in most cases.

Personally, I'd have to spend thousands on drainage and surfacing to make it work for me, so what I have instead is a system where the horses can come and go as they please between a small field and a yard system (complete with barn and sand play area). They can't see the yard from the field and vice versa, which encourages them to regularly move between the two areas to see what's going on. Also, the water's in the yard, but the grass is in the field. Sadly that works less well in winter when they're fed the hay on the yard and, when the weather's really bad, sometimes just choose to stay on the nice dry yard and not go out 

[Appy2quarter]

Thanks for that link acb!  Very very interesting website and - I have to say - seems well thought out and considered.  I may well be giving them a call as I do like the sound of their gut balancers and base essentials mix. 

[Cloud_cirrus]

Some very early research that I have seen involving GPS tracking of a herd of horses in a paddock paradise situation, versus a normal 'square' paddock showed absolutely no difference in miles covered during a day.

It's next on my list to do with my boys, just working out how to fit the GPS to the horse in a safe way.

[Cabruze]

Yes. The sugar levels are lower at night and even if you don't know what has caused the insulin resistance (assuming that's the problem - not all cases are insulin resistant), that's going to be less likely to trigger an attack. I've seen lots of cases where horses do better when turned out at night rather than during the day.

Hi Richard

I've always thought night grazing was safer than day (re sugar levels in grass) but a friend who sadly lost mare and foal to chronic founder was told by Robert Eustace that late afternoon and the early hours of the morning was the most dangerous time for grazing.  Late afternoon I can understand but early hours of the morning (ie before daybreak)?

I'd really welcome clarification please!

[rvialls]

My experience is definitely that overnight is safer than during the day. I've seen no evidence that early morning is an issue other than when there's been a frost overnight. I'd tend to agree about late afternoon though.

As for Robert Eustace, I don't have a massive amount of time for his views personally.

[Mossy]

I cannot base this on any research but for six years my two were on a typical livery yard, ie flat fertilized fields, separate winter and summer grazing and the inevitable pig out on field change. Oh and in at night for six months I used to struggle with weight, blown legs mudfever, backs etc etc and go through hay like i don't know what. For the past two years they have been on 8 acres on the side of a hill, just and partially reclaimed from gorse. never fertilized, and partially wooded, with granite outcrops. Oh and out most of the time. They have never been fitter. I have had no weight issues, and the dentist, back lady, and farrier are delighted with them. Oh they are also as surefooted as mountain goats. I know which i would rather