Naughty Napping Advice - Reversing?

[Jojoba]

Hi there

Just wanted a bit of advice about how you guys would deal with this problem...

Bob hasnt done much all winter and Im just bringing him back into work now. When I got him (almost 2 years ago now!) I turned him away for a few months and when I bought him back into work he was fine to hack, but in the school he would just stand on the centre line and root. If you tried to force him to move he would just buck on the spot and still refuse.
I took this as an indication that since he was young he wasnt up for schooling yet, and spent the next year just hacking him which he really enjoyed (though he would sometimes be a tad nappy leaving the yard, especially in front). I then moved yards and have been periodically schooling him - he is still nappy but in a leaning to the gate way, we havent had any repeats of the standing and bucking since I began schooling him again.
Today I brought him into the school for the first time in a while (maybe November...?) as his new 'getting fit and being a grown up' regime begins now!
I was only planning very basic work as he's very unfit - some walking, circling, reacquainting with the school and a couple of short trots and transitions. First, he napped horribly about leaving the yard. Eventually got him out (I do this by persistance - I stand and wait and dont let him turn away and eventually he gets bored and goes of his own accord, and is rewarded for that... Yes I too see the problem in this and will come back to it later!).
Started fine in the school and did a couple of laps in walk each way on a long rein. Then, changing the rein, he stopped dead. No amount of chivvying, shouting, pony club kicking etc gets anything out of him when he does this, it's infuriating  . Except today he added a new twist - he stopped dead but when I tried to move him on he went backwards at high speed! This wasnt related to the position of the gate or anything, he was usually reversing away from it. I should never have taught this pony to rein back! The more I tried to ride him forwards the more he went backwards, turning him had no effect, sitting still made him stop, leg on sent him back again. Strong leg and angry mum made him put his ears flat back and lighten his front end in a threatening way. Eventually I got off and located a stick. I walked him in hand and when he tried to stop he got a sharp tap behind the saddle. After 3 times he stopped trying to stop and walked with me, stopping when I stopped, going when I went. I also walked backwards with him then made him walk forwards out of it, and turned him and walked forwards. Once he was doing this with good attention (and licking and chewing, I might add), I got back on. Rooted again. He got a smack, ran backwards, got another one and a sample of Extremely Angry Mummy, ears back, threatened to rear again, third smack and a real DO IT NOW. Went forwards absolutely no problem. Dropped into a nice outline, jogged forwards with plenty of energy, and was fine from then on. In fact, he went probably the nicest he ever has!
A couple of times he looked at the gate and I rode him forwards or raised my stick slightly and he got his mind back on the job. Plenty of nice long loose trots, circles etc. Walked on a long rein to finish up and then rode him out.
Then the little brat decided to pretend to be frightened of the house. It has always been there, it has been being renovated as long as Bob has been at this yard, and there were no workmen. Stopped dead. Leg on, he threatened to rear again and then went backwards until he walked into a tree and rooted again. This time I sat for a while and then told him he had had enough time and put the leg on, got assertive, another flick with the stick and he walked past without even glancing at it. He got a click and I stopped him at the gate and he got his treat.

This is when a wondering crossed my mind - by rewarding him for 'overcoming' his problems, do I encourage him to display them in the first place so that he can then behave and get his reward? It sounds a bit advanced for a horse but mine is rather bright..... Is the behaviour Im rewarding not 'well done for walking on' as I thought, but 'congratulations for being a total monster but eventually getting bored and moving'?

Also, how on earth do we deal with this threatening/reversing behaviour?? Its a little unseating when he does it at high speed which is probably why he does it.... I dont really like having to get into such a fight, nor do I like having to smack him. But he is a stroppy teenager and has always been very opinionated. Im not really worried about this napping as I dont think that he will continue to display it once he gets back into the routine of being ridden regularly and realises he really does have to do as I ask. But I was just wondering if anyone would have dealt with it differently seeing as I imagine I'll have to deal with it a couple more times yet before he realises Im not going to give in!
On the advice of people on here I now treat schooling time as 'work time' and no longer fuss or reward him in the school. He sometimes gets a click for a big effort (no treat in the school though) or a scratch on the neck.

This is the first schooling session in ages so as I said Im not worried at all, but if anyone has any better approaches then please let me know. I dont think pushing him will cause him to buck or rear (though I was tentative at first). I think Bob is all bark and no bite  .


Any thoughts welcome .

ETA - sorry always assume people automatically know who Bob is :p, he's 5 (rising 6 this summer) and a Fell pony. I drop this in because of the slow maturing and highly opinionated 'cheeky' nature of Natives .


xxx

[intouch]

I fee your pain!  I had a go-back-mobile, all 17.3 of him.  I got him out of it by allowing him to go backwards - so long as it was where I wanted to go.  We had a very quiet hack - about 20 mins through fields - the first time it took us 2 1/2 hours, mostly standing still or going backwards, but over a week we managed it in the 20 mins, going forwards.  He did eventually forget about it except for the odd plant - which we resolved by turning round and walking backwards past whatever it was he was pretending to be frightened of.  But when someone else rode him, he would try it on again.  Good luck, it's not fun!

[Bradders]

I had a terrible napper once.

I eventually discovered that the angrier I got the more stubborn he would become. As soon as I felt myself getting cross, I would take a deep breath, count to 10 and ask again - nicely - worked most fo the time

Reversing was one of his tricks too - he made the mistake of doing it with my YO on once - she just carried on riding him in reverse - she backed him all the way from the yard to the house, turned him round (in reverse) and reversed him back to the yard , out of the gate and down the bridle path He was most cheesed off that his party trick had back fired!

Napping is terribly frustrating, so you have my complete sympathy

Someone recommended this book to me when I was having my issues - it is a Western one, but I found it really useful - and, from what I can recall, he uses kind methods - I loaned the book to someone and never got it back!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Problem-Solving-Preventing-Problems-Horseman/dp/1585747459/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268123184&sr=8-2

Good luck

[flintfootfilly]

one of the great things about an arena is that if he continues going in the same direction for more than a few metres, he WILL meet a fence which will cause him to change his mind regarding his best options!

I think I'd opt for just sitting there and ensuring that he backs up straight if that's his chosen direction.  Bide your time til he meets the fenceline, then invite him forward again.  It'll at least close one door for him in terms of direction, and will also mean you are allowing him to explore the options to find the right one.

You'll be doing this anyway, but I'd also just keep a check that I'm not pulling on the reins and giving conflicting signals.

He sounds as though re really needs to recognise a clear release when he does the right thing.  Walking backwards as an evasion really isn't an easy option, so hopefully he'll be looking for another answer.

Sarah

[shoveltrash]

option #1: carry a clicker & treat bag.
when he takes just ONE STEP in the right direction, forwards, click & reward.  you can build on this and then gradually phase out the need for the clicker .

#2: carry a stick, always.
stay UNEMOTIONAL.  no matter WHAT he does.  (key to this working)
just tap tap tap tap tap tap until he gives you the correct forward response.  THEN pat him, make a big fuss (and obviously stop the tapping immediately when he steps forward).  

in both cases imho it's best to break this down into teen tiny training pieces.  one day you might go in the school, deal with this napping/planting just once and then END the session when he gives you a correct 'answer'.  i'd always try to end on a good note.  even if it means that your riding session might be very short.  horses remember these things, and it pays off in the long run.

good luck
and please do update us.

eta: you can combine #1 & #2 as well  

[lisaNW]

Just a quick bit of advice re the clicker work - I know where you're coming from re whether its teaching him to display the bad behaviour in order to then correct it and get the reward. I had the same question, but mine was regarding leading. If April walks past me when being led, and I back her and put her where I want her, then CT to show that's where I want her, have I just taught her to walk past me in order to be reined back and then rewarded when she's back in place? It's all about timing. So, she walks past, I reposition her to where I want her, CT...and then for the important bit...I CT again while she is still where I want her to be...before she has had chance to dispaly the unwanted behaviour again...so I've just repositioned her, CT'd, then asked her to walk on again...and I CT fairly quickly while she is still walking where I want her to be, before she has chance to walk past me....then I gradually build up the duration of asking her to walk without coming past me...

Does that make sense?

I'm also not sure about the approach of not rewarding in the school...if I was him I would definitely rather not go in there if it was all work with no reward. Its about rewarding what you want more of.

Johanna (Pikku Karhu) would have some useful comments on the CT and also the combining of -ve and +ve reinforcement...

HTH
Lisa

[Jojoba]

Thanks for the replies guys


I rode him the next day and he stopped once and got a smack, bucked and then didnt try it again. And went very very nicely.

Im really pleased actually - Ive never done much canter work with him as his walk/trot wasnt very established and canter seemed like it would just confuse things more. I started cantering him in straight lines under saddle in the field at the end of the summer, then tried a little in the school - he was horribly unbalanced and could manage a grudging one side of the school before breaking so I just left it. Tried when I rode him the other day and he went the minute I asked, really balanced, cantered a side, then a 20m circle, then trotted when I asked  . He has filled out SO much over the winter and looks so much more mature, I guess all I needed to do was leave him to sort himself out - Im glad I didnt push this and try and make him get it when he wasnt ready; its so much easier to just let him grow up and learn it himself and not rush.

Re; the rewarding thing.... even though I try to be really good and do exactly as the clicker books say I find Bob is really muggy and rude when he gets treats, and it seems to just make him a bit cheeky under saddle. I originally started off ridden work with CT, but I find he works better and more focused when they arent in the equation. I would like him to enjoy his work but I dont want him to focus entirely on treats all the time.... So since Im not good enough with the CT evidently Ive removed it to focus on things Im more confident with (just riding him...). Lisa - what you do with April is what Im trying to do with Bob (with the not walking past) but I find it quite difficult and sometimes I dont think he's entirely clear on what he did when I do that. I have used that fairly successfully for getting him to stand still though.... but he is often more focused on getting in a tizzy / being grumpy than getting a treat!
He doesnt seems reluctant to work at all, more like he's just trying it on.... when I go to the field and call him he always runs straight over (and he isnt fed or anything, ever). He is fine to bridle, fine to saddle, fine to mount. Fine to take into the school..... I wonder sometimes if its because he is alone - he used to shout a lot when I had him in the school but has stopped that. I just wonder if he tries it on because he lacks confidence alone? When I have ridden him in the school with another horse he knew (3 times in the summer) he didnt nap that I can remember.

Oh and the problem with our school is - we have a walled area behind our stables which contains 2 outdoor schools and a roundpen - the school I was using therefore only has walls on 2 sides, then a huge expanse of grass/2nd school/haylage barns/stables. Bob was, of course, always reversing to this empty space!


I will video him soon (have roped the boyfriend in) so you can let me know what you think .

xxx

[shoveltrash]

sounds like you are doing well
i can sympathize with you re CT....it's not for everything nor everyone.  i'm not expert at it, so keep it's use to a minimum because of that . 

can't wait to *see* Bob!!!!  it's been a while

[drummers mum]

sounds like you are doing well
i can sympathize with you re CT....it's not for everything nor everyone.  i'm not expert at it, so keep it's use to a minimum because of that . 

read my blog re the "grrrr I'll make you click"    We have just left it for a bit and I think I am only going to use it for new stuff!

[cirocco]

Ive ridden quite a few 'nappers' and some have been a nightmare. T.B racers sometimes threw a wobbler, refusing to go forward and rearing when asked. Thats the worst thing the horse might learn to do when napping.

I agree that you sometimes get the horse out of the 'habit' by reversing endlessly round and round, so that it becomes a rotten game. And yes always carry a stick.

Try two long schooling whips, it stops the horse moving over to one side to avoid the tap.  I ask with my legs and voice, then tap tap with the two whips gently on both sides, It seems that the horse isn't used to the two whips and so moves forward. Ive used this method quite a lot, its not necessary to do anything more than to touch the horse.