A good article on positive v negative reinforcement

[TashaKat]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=15813

(Btw I know that the 'whip shaking' isn't the negative reinforcement, only the stopping of it.)  

That, however, leads to another question about whether negative reinforcement can ever be applied without using positive punisment or if the two are inextricably linked.  That is discussed in the following article:

http://www.theequineindependent.com:/home/?p=103

[catkin]

I agree with the second article that whatever we do in training (and indeed our everyday handling) has an element of positive punishment to some degree - and this is as true for bringing up kids as it is for horses - it's the basis of learning IMHO ( 'I won't touch the fire again it's hot', 'I won't try eating that again it tasted nasty').

It is up to us where we draw the line of what's acceptable - this is where each and every one of us has a moral responsibility to learn good timing and emotional control, and to know when to walk away and try another time.

Another thought: can we do our horses a disservice by using positive reinforcement? - now don't just say 'of course we don't' which is the first emotional response......... we spend a lot of time desensitising horses to spooky objects, we spend a lot of time lightening or sensitising them to the 'aids'  and encouraging them to 'learn' - down the line the horse finds itself in other hands, have we created something the horse now can't handle? Interesting to hear your thoughts.

 

[TashaKat]

A very interesting and valid point and one that I came up against in recent months when I was having to decide what I was going to do with Saff.  She's my horse for life and I had no intention of giving her up but you never know when your circumstances will change.  

I had to think very seriously.  Could I loan her out?  But who to?  Who could I trust her with?  If the worst came to the worst who would I sell her to?  Could I live with myself knowing that she'd gone to a home that used predominantly negative reinforcement and, possibly, punishment as part of every day training?  It wasn't just the clicker training it was also the riding.  Could I loan or sell her to someone who would ride in a chair seat and bounce around on her back because  they haven't been taught about absorption of the movement?

The answer to those questions was no and I did everything that I possibly could to keep hold of her even though it was, in some ways, to my detriment.  Thankfully Paula and Lesley came along and generously offered Saff a place with their herd so the crisis was averted.

Am I doing her a disservice by using predominantly positive reinforcement and classical techniques?  Personally I think not, she was a 'difficult' horse when I got her and I've seen her positively bloom using Heather's methods for riding, Becky's methods for in hand and long reining and, of course, clicker.      Would I do things differently knowing what I know now?  No, absolutely not.  As a 5 year old I was told to 'get rid' of her by someone that I trusted, I'm now told how 'lucky' I am to have such a good natured and PLACID horse    I may not be the most skilled person in the world with horses but I don't regret the path that I've taken, the path that I wouldn't have gone down if I hadn't have got her.

I'm not a purist in that I don't use 100% positive reinforcement so Saff is au fait with light negative reinforcement although I have already seen the effects of 'heavier' handling of her in a loss of confidence and an adverse reaction to me just lifting my hand  I suppose that this is where I could have done her a disservice but is it more ethical to train her in such a way as to shut her down from this or to open her up to a kinder way if her predominant experience is going to be the kinder way?

Would I use the same methods if I was a dealer or buying to train and sell on?  Realistically, probably not, but then I couldn't bear to part with them anyway, I'd just end up with fields full of horses  

[issywizz]

I have fields full of horses 
I have to say Im still not convinced that +re  ONLY works with every single horse,although I do think it is a great tool and should be a big part of everybodies kit who works with horses.But then I dont believe there is ANY one method that works for every horse and the more horses I come across the more confirmed I am in that belief.

[Belbe]

I agree with the second article that whatever we do in training (and indeed our everyday handling) has an element of positive punishment to some degree - and this is as true for bringing up kids as it is for horses - it's the basis of learning IMHO ( 'I won't touch the fire again it's hot', 'I won't try eating that again it tasted nasty').

It is up to us where we draw the line of what's acceptable - this is where each and every one of us has a moral responsibility to learn good timing and emotional control, and to know when to walk away and try another time.

Brilliantly put!

Another thought: can we do our horses a disservice by using positive reinforcement? - now don't just say 'of course we don't' which is the first emotional response......... we spend a lot of time desensitising horses to spooky objects, we spend a lot of time lightening or sensitising them to the 'aids'  and encouraging them to 'learn' - down the line the horse finds itself in other hands, have we created something the horse now can't handle? Interesting to hear your thoughts.

 

that's a very good point. I've thought about that a zillion times and decided to elect 2 people I completely trust to get trustworthy owners for my horses in case somethin happens to me, and explain to them how they where trained.
Thing is, you can actually whip their face and they don't care! to them, the whip is really just an extension of my arm and it's serves exactly the same purposes. There's no way I can use it to make them scared, go faster or step aside unless they really whant to. This is just one of the examples. Only thing they are still scared of is me getting angry... wich hasn't happened in ages and I hope it never does again because they totally freak out and I simply hate to see their scared eyes. (and no, I have never hurt them when I'm angry, though I have hurt my own foot... )