Chopin turns 3! time to start working... or not! lol

[Nix77]

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anywhoo, while i cook dinner, here's come food for argument. If a horse does all the lateral work correctly (shoulder in, travers, renvers etc), is circling such an imperative? I regained my mare's balance through lateral work and seldom do circles hence my questionAnother point in my head is: circling is a symptom of serious mental injury. animals don't circle under normal circunstamces. Horses do all the other stuff we ask them on their own, but never circle. circling may be a symptom of liver bypass, acute acetonemia, etc. I believe this explains why they don't like it. Even thouroughly schooled and well balanced horses get bored and eventually go on auto-pilot when asked to circle... maybe they're avoinding insanity? 

Charles de kuffny 'the athletic development of the dressage horse' is an excellent buy and explains about how to use circles to gymnastically train a horse. They are used to stretch different sides of a horse, weight different limbs and work on straightness. I just dont know why you wouldnt do circles? they are so beneficial, easy and useful? small circles require more strength and control, and larger ones make it easier for the horse to bend and use itself from tail to forehand. They calm a nervous horse through repetition, and you can then use this calmness to train more advanced movements? the problem i see with just lateral work is that it invites holding and a stilted, tense way of moving that is just not right to the goal of dressage - which is to keep the purity of paces whilst developing their expression.... and if you never go on a straight line, whether just forwards or circles, how do you know your training is correct? you will never see how you are moving straight?
 
 and if your well schooled horses get bored when circling i respectfully suggest you arent doing it right. I want my horses to get a nice even rhtym, and stretch into a lovely contact - the best moment for me is when the movement is big, free, forward and has that 'bouyed on a wave' feeling - of which the humble 20m circle opitamises...

[Belbe]

Nix, you are right in every point. however, I don't talk about horses i don't know. maybe yours do like circles. The ones i've worked so far don't. They slow down and fall into an even rythm sure, but their eyes dull out on me and I loose feedback, they start acting like bicycles, where i give the command and they follow blindly. I don't whant that. I may be very clumsy but a girl can dream! I enjoy riding when it feels like we're a dancing pair and i'm the gentleman. I lead and the horse does the showing off part. It's obviously wonderful when you feel the horse giving his back to you but I like it just that way: the horse offers his back, not like i saw happen this summer when a top swiss trainer who earns 600€ per lesson rode my mare around on endless circles untill her eyes dulled and she started acting like a drone. She forced her back out and she did the most beautiful extended trot! 2 great canter pirouetes wich i didn't even know she could! but she was soooooooooo upset! I had to deal with her unwilingness to work for the following 2 weeks  

PS: allow me to disagree on one point. Not intending to quote Philippe Karl but, a straight horse is a horse that is as flexible to the right as to the left. You don't need to follow a circle or a straight line to feel this. Actually, if you squeeze a horse enough between your hands and legs you can get him to move straight without much schooling. What we're looking for is a horse that will do all exercises with the same ease on both leads.

[Belbe]

btw, what's a bonkers?
 

I'll skip part IV as it has no gymnastic value and would cause useless chatter 

[ukica]

bonkers=crazy   

Interesting points here...

Have to say though, still like circles

[issywizz]

Quote;
Another point in my head is: circling is a symptom of serious mental injury. animals don't circle under normal circunstamces. Horses do all the other stuff we ask them on their own, but never circle. circling may be a symptom of liver bypass, acute acetonemia, etc. I believe this explains why they don't like it. Even thouroughly schooled and well balanced horses get bored and eventually go on auto-pilot when asked to circle... maybe they're avoinding insanity?  rofl

Brilliant!love it! 
Still think you are totally bonkers though 

Nix,you must be a techie,that is THE most boring dressage book I have never read-its on my shelf wheres its been for the last ten years 

Trudi-I like that,what a great way of putting it.

[Belbe]

hahaha! i can't point fingers at anyone! some love circles, i'm a shoulder-in/travers addict! don ask me why, i just really really like it! maybe it's cos it was the only answer i found to start hacking out my hyper nervous mare without having her bolt at every single leaf that fell from a tree! basically, we spent most of the hack zigzaguing from one side of the road to the other on shoulder-in/travers alternating bends every few yards. It was the only way to keep her mind on her feet instead of the scaaaaaaaary little birds who ruefuly flew down from the tree to cross her way on purpose! nasty nasty sparrows! 

 

[whisper's mum]

I've always had an aversion to circles - my old instructor used to say  hacking was for morons and I used to counter that it was far more inspiring than trotting mindless circles.  I guess, it is what you are doing on those circles that matters. I am very guilty of using circles as Belbe describes, as a way to switch off a hyper horse (or Whisper pony) until they are calm enough to begin proper work ... but I never lunge before I ride so the initial circling is my way of remaining safe. 

[Nix77]

turned off or lossyglossywhasit?

Circles are proper work  i think people dont like doing them because it is harder to ride a good circle than do lateral work

[Belbe]

turned off or lossyglossywhasit?

Circles are proper work   i think people dont like doing them because it is harder to ride a good circle than do lateral work

not really! i'm the one with the problem u know, it's hard for me to imagine the circle. to ride a proper one, i always have to draw it on the floor first. after that, a more or less balanced horse will do it quite easily so long as you use you seat aids properly. and riding correct lateral work is much more difficult. stiff lateral work is easy. but having the horse do it on a loose rein and supple joints is a nightmare. I'm lucky! my mare's previous instructor used to have her do a proper shoulder in with no reins at all. If she's really relaxed i can get her to do it a well and it's beatuful cos she really overreaches that inside leg and gives her back thoroghly, but the least ouce of tension and i have to use the reins again and the brilliancy of it is lost....

what also makes me doubt the emphasis given to circles (again, I believe they are useful, just not as much as is commonly accepted) is that all the school horses from the yard i took lessons woked as stiff as boards and yet did circles all day long. I myself remmeber being able to queeze them into a correct bend on a perfect circle very often (the instructor drew them for us) and still, after all these years, i see no supplenes in them.

[ukica]

now Lippa lateral work on the circle....you are showing off!! 

[issywizz]

Great post Lippa.
( did I really write that?  )

[issywizz]

 
Think we both need to go and lie down in a darkened room.

[Belbe]

hahaha! actually the few circles i do are with lateral wok in conjunction. At least the horse stays focused on those. If I demand nothing more than a correct circle the horse dulls out. Again, i'm not speaking about anyone else's horses but just the ones I ride. They think simple circles are boring and I don't enjoy riding bored horses. And when i say a horse dulls out, i don't mean to the aids. Example: if you are dancing to a tune you don't like, you can still follow you partner just as lightly, but you don't feel the will to express yourself or suggest variations, you simply content yourself to follow the lead and let the gentleman work the boring song out for you. That is what I feel in a horse that's dulled on me. A horse that is actually enjoying work will talk back to me, will try to outguess my will, express his talent and joy in full. He may get ahead of himself and fail to do what i asked now and then, but i'm perfectly happy with that because we're doing it mostly for the fun of it and technical perfection, gymnastic ability improvement and so forth come in second place. A horse is not a person, they do not think: i have to go jogging even though i don feel like it because it's good for my health. So the hardest part for me in horse training is to give a horse free expression and still have him do as you ask. that requires constantly assessing his mood and coming up with ways to keep him interested and willing before he turns his back on you and you have to resort to taking his freedom away again to keep him from going against your will.

This is the sole point in wich I disagreed with Anja Beran's work. she kept saying: the exercise was correctly executed but lacked expression. that's not a problem, you can ask for expression later. That kindda shocked me. Probably because i'm not german and us latins aren't very good with rules and regulations and strict protocols and bla bla bla. It is a flaw we have. But for some reason we are considered the best dancers, to have the best food, etc. I don't have a dressage competition to attend, i don't have schedules, i'm not in a hurry. If i take 10 times as much time to get the job done, who's there to complain?  and if i get a horse that is thrilled to be ridden but not a model of posture and correctedness, who's there to complain?

[whisper's mum]

turned off or lossyglossywhasit?

Circles are proper work  i think people dont like doing them because it is harder to ride a good circle than do lateral work

They aren't proper work the way I do them, that's what I'm saying!  Mine involve trotting round and round at warp speed until pone gets dizzy and slows down - I just have to hope that happens before I get dizzy and fall off. 

[shoveltrash]

Lippa i'm speechless!
didn't know you were so passionate about circling
(very well said btw!)

So the hardest part for me in horse training is to give a horse free expression and still have him do as you ask. that requires constantly assessing his mood and coming up with ways to keep him interested and willing before he turns his back on you and you have to resort to taking his freedom away again to keep him from going against your will.

all i can say, is that a savvy trainer can make ANYTHING interesting & rewarding for a horse - not to say that *I* am that good......but clinicing with Erik Herbermann really opened my eyes to the possiblities, building the "willing partnership" that does indeed make the horse WANT to circle, and do it well, and be excited about it.  CT helps too .
i notice that you treat often (as do i ), do you use Clicker Training?

i did not know that Anja B. said that - surprising!

Helen