Chopin turns 3! time to start working... or not! lol

[Belbe]

daaaaaaaaaaamn!!! the browser erased my entire answer!
I'll write it again tomorow. thanks ukika, I'll take the camera tomorow. He looks like I starve him though... not a pleasant sight 

weighband says 420kg. he eats 2kg of pure easy. will increase to 3kg pure work. has 1 salt block and one mineral block and a water tank that is refilled every 3 days with fresh water. skin fold test is normal and he's rarely thirsty on hacks (he doesn't sweat much anyway)

I do weight 63kg, my saddle is 3kg, plus tack must go to 4-5kg. the saddlebag plus fillings is about 3kg and we climb mountains all the time so even if it's just twice a week it's far more than he's ever done. Supose that and the growing will take some time to adjust. I've always kept him fit, usually by feeding ad-lib hay only. Only had to add supplement when he started working, and now that I'm riding it doesn't seem enough, have to experiment to see what works. He's barefoot and has perfectly functional feet so I'm very very picky about his feed! 

(a the first bunch of photos on this article are his feet: http://katrinebuur.webs.com/Feet2.pdf)

[ukica]

Yes, the increase to pure work should help....should be fine if he is getting ad lib hay and grazing too.

Couldn't see the pictures from your link 

I think the hill work can be quite taxing for a youngster, although good for strengthening.  I expect he is burning a lot of fat, as hill work is slow and continuous, so adding linseed or other oil is a good idea.  If you can buy raw linseed, you can cook them and make a gel.

I will put up some recent pictures of my horse (he is the dark bay)  to show you his build at this age.  He is living out 24/7 at the moment...(i think he is a little on the light side...don't laugh at my white legs  )

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae201/santiago81/santi.jpg[/img]]

[issywizz]

Belbe,
This is why its not considered a good idea to work them properly at 3 years old-they are still growing!!!!!!
If hes underweight then hes obviously not coping with growing and working,and neither will his skeleton cope with carrying 70kg round mountains so long before his growth plates have closed.

[Belbe]

well, at least i don't hide it with 8 kg of grain a day like all the same age horses we have competing here in the island. plus he works twice a week instead of every single day... not saying i'm doing it right either, far from it, but I'm still not convinced it's just the workload as he was almost this slim before i started working him at all, it actually happened when I moved his brother into his paddok... Chopin's the leader so its not lack of food, so i'm thinking them playing a lot is also affecting the whole picture.

anywhoo, I'm going with the old saying: If the horse sweats then you've done too much. So far it's 25ºC under 90% humidity under lunchtime sun and he still doesn't sweat nor breath deeply nor look tired in any way so by my phisiology knolage, he's just burning a lot of fat. Is that healthy in a youngster? I'm not sure, but haven't read any phisiology article that says otherwise. If my experience goes wrong though, you'll be the first to know. One thing is sure, I never knew an edurance horse that wasn't skinny as a stick  

I know you only mean good Issy, and that I might be ruining my horse but put yourself in my shoes: all I see in the horseworld around me is bullshi*, all wrong, I see inverted necks, swayed backs, horrible malformed feet and above all, depressed shut down horses everywhere, it's a pain simply to look at their faces. So I decided to ignore it all. I stick with what I learn through my own experience and other people's personal experience but never through what they where taught. Just to start with, just like Heather, I know a farmer here that works all his horses from 2 year old and they all have sturdy looking bodies, a lively soul, and great feet. He simply knows how to do it without forcing and that's what I'm tryng to learn. I've been climbing hills since I was 6 with my lil backpack and it's never harmed me, I have a long back and short legs so I should be worse of all. I only got a problem when I whent to highschool and they forced me to carry a ton of books every day all day on my back. So the issue was, what is too much weight? Maybe I am, maybe I'll have to get a lil boy to ride him for me, I dunno, I'm learning... (And trust me, he's safe enough to ride a baby)

[ukica]

Twice a week is OK but it depends how long?  My boy is stick thin too and i am not even working him    I think it is a stage they can go through.

[Belbe]

Ukika, you horse is gorgeous! Looks loads like Chopin in his built too! even the weird lookin neck, lol! so yeah, it might be a stage! LOL! My coach knew Chopin's brother when he was his age too and says he looked just as skinny and weird necked. Now he's perfect! (he's 5 now)

Come to think of it, my ribs have always shown out too! I'm almost thirty now and am the only of my old school mates that still keeps a figure, am rarely ill and can run uphill for hours on end. So u understand why i'm a lil bias on this skinny thing. In my experience it has never meant anything was wrong   

forgot the stupid camera yesterday again. I'll kill miself if i don bring it today!

Yesterday we whent for a new training lesson: No gelding, just the 2 brother stallions. Well, useless to say we had to walk them for a mile or 2 before remounting cos as soon as we passed the mares paddock Chopin was furious with his older brother and wanted nothing more than kick or bite him. His brother, being the chillout mariuana addict he is, decided he wanted to go back home cos there's no point going out with someone who doesn't whant u there. So down I went, yelled: BEHAVE! and headed foward on a bad mood without another word. He lowered his head in his usual apology stance and followed like a puppy. When I remounted we where in front of a construction site and he played chicken on me cos he's never led before without the gelding or me by his side. Took about 2-3 minutes of arguing, (no legs and no whip, he doesn't react well to either) and eventually filled up his chest got his grip and was back to his old proud and confident self again for the whole remainder of the hack. Never looked back at his brother again xcept when we took a few strides of gallop and his bro passed too close by his side (whanted to bite him again, i touched the outside rein and he got manners immediately). Mission accomplished!

On a side note, again someone says he's a dog. There where fresh tracks from the army cavalry the whole track we passed so he spent 90% of the hack walking or troting with his nose on the ground. My cousin said he looked exactly like an english pointer hunting. Still dunno how he does that but it's preety confortable

[issywizz]

well, at least i don't hide it with 8 kg of grain a day like all the same age horses we have competing here in the island. plus he works twice a week instead of every single day... not saying i'm doing it right either, far from it, but I'm still not convinced it's just the workload as he was almost this slim before i started working him at all, it actually happened when I moved his brother into his paddok... Chopin's the leader so its not lack of food, so i'm thinking them playing a lot is also affecting the whole picture.

Well two wrongs dont make a right Belbe-just because there may be some idiots feeding their 3 yr olds masses of grain to work them doesnt mean that working them and not doing so is good either!

anywhoo, I'm going with the old saying: If the horse sweats then you've done too much. So far it's 25ºC under 90% humidity under lunchtime sun and he still doesn't sweat nor breath deeply nor look tired in any way so by my phisiology knolage, he's just burning a lot of fat. Is that healthy in a youngster? I'm not sure, but haven't read any phisiology article that says otherwise. If my experience goes wrong though, you'll be the first to know. One thing is sure, I never knew an edurance horse that wasn't skinny as a stick  

If the horse sweats its done too much??? So following this theory you could do a 100 mile endurance ride on your 3 yr old straight after breaking and that would be fine??? Well actually you did get on and ride a newly backed 3 yr old for 4 hours didnt you? .......

As for endurance horses being slim-they are ADULTS!!!!!!!!! There is a HUGE difference between doing endurance on an adult that has been brought up to a level of work slowly and dragging a 3 yr old hacking up mountains for hours-the two have nothing in common atall!
I know you only mean good Issy, and that I might be ruining my horse but put yourself in my shoes: all I see in the horseworld around me is bullshi*, all wrong, I see inverted necks, swayed backs, horrible malformed feet and above all, depressed shut down horses everywhere, it's a pain simply to look at their faces. So I decided to ignore it all. I stick with what I learn through my own experience and other people's personal experience but never through what they where taught. Just to start with, just like Heather, I know a farmer here that works all his horses from 2 year old and they all have sturdy looking bodies, a lively soul, and great feet. He simply knows how to do it without forcing and that's what I'm tryng to learn. I've been climbing hills since I was 6 with my lil backpack and it's never harmed me, I have a long back and short legs so I should be worse of all. I only got a problem when I whent to highschool and they forced me to carry a ton of books every day all day on my back. So the issue was, what is too much weight? Maybe I am, maybe I'll have to get a lil boy to ride him for me, I dunno, I'm learning... (And trust me, he's safe enough to ride a baby)

I see inverted necks and hollow backs in your horses Belbe so I cant imagine what other horses you are comparing to!

Are you actually suggesting that Heather works two year olds??????? Because she most certainly doesnt! And she also advocates spending several weeks on groundwork with any horse before backing too.

Hey,maybe you would have longer legs if you hadnt been climbing hills with a backpack at 6? lol

Its not about you being too heavy for him atall,its about the workload being too much-2 days is great but not when you are hacking up hills for several hours at a time and your horse is underweight and undermuscled as a result.
Just because some people do things even worse doesnt mean that you are doing right.
Have you never read Hilary Claytons study on growth plates? You should.

[winnieandben]

Twice a week is OK but it depends how long?  My boy is stick thin too and i am not even working him    I think it is a stage they can go through.

I think Santi looks fine    I would rather my horse wasnt such a good doer!

[Belbe]

i'm 1,72 meters tall, the tallest girl in the family, tallest in my class and preety tall for a portuguese woman so no, i don think it did me any wrong. I only have 2 horses, none of them has ever done any propper work so their neck is not my doing yet. Dunno wa horses u speak of.
I would never say people doin worse than me makes me right, but I'm not about to think hacking in a long low position will invert necks.
And now that u decide to attack instead of ponder and answer in good reason, I said Heather spoke of a cowboy who could do it, I NEVER said she did it herself. Will u learn how to read and keep a propper conversation? mahn, u need to read Dalai Lama. Do you even hear me attacking people for doing stuff I'm sure is wrong? never, that only places them on their guard and completely block me out. Learn some teaching and argument skills first.

Anywhoo, my horse is almost 4 and has been eating straw and hay alone for a long time cos the yard owner only has corn silage to feed horses and I don trust the groom to measure a normal grain right. Try and give your fully grown and muscled horse that and see how he turns out.  

In any case, I'm perfectly aware of what happens if you overwork a groing animal. I'm a vet. Plus I have a lot of gymnasts in the family who ended up 1.50 meters tall on the account of overwork as children. But they where the equivalent of a 6 month old horse not a nearly 4 year old, wich is more or less the same as a 15 year old human. The plates haven't closed, but the effect isn't nearly significant. I also know that closed plates don't mean half as much as you think. Read "the bowed tendon book" for instace, it explains that well. Bone and ligament stregntening are much more important than growth plates and muscles are the least of your worries, you can build muscles in a matter of 3-4months, ligaments and bones take about 2 years! Plus, endurance horses are among the ones that lead the longest competing life and they start at walk around 3 years of age (they are arabs, they grow as slow as lusitanos) and more often than not work inverted, and still they lead loooong healthy lives. So again, I'm not about to believe long hacks on a perfectly relaxed head down horse are troublesome. Horses where made to walk the entire day, what's 3 hours twice a week? no wonder he doesn't sweat. To him, that's just going out for a graze.

[Belbe]

on a side note, the shruken gymnasts in the family are all healthy as heathy gets! they're just... small.  
It's also quite intriguing that recent studies conclude that gymnastics on an early age doesn't actually reduce growth rate but it is actually the shorter children by genes that do better at gymnasts... I'll be followin up these studies to hear what the earlier version supporters have to retaliate 

[ukica]

 

Yer IW, get yourself a copy of the Delai Lama 

[issywizz]

I wasnt attacking anybody I was saying what I thought which is more than most people are prepared to do.
If you dont want to listen that is your perogative but given that this is a *discussion* board then if people post about what they are doing I would think it only normal that other people respond with their thoughts.
Just because somebody doesnt say " oh how lovely well done you" doesnt mean they are attacking somebody. 
And all the folk who just pat others on the back when they are doing something which they consider harmful are doing nobody any good-especially the horses.

Belbe,this thread started with you saying he was just turned 3 in December and within a very short time you were hacking out for several hours up hills.
Even going on the pics in June he looks far poorer and lacking muscle from the pics in December before you started him,so saying that your horses havent been worked so their musculature isnt your doing isnt really correct.
Your other horse also had very poor musculature when she was being asked to piaffe.
My own horses all eat grass and hay and are well muscled so I dont accept your reasoning behind why your horse isnt whilst  on a diet of hay and straw atall.

Anyway as you say you are a vet,presumeably you have been in equine practise for some years? as otherwise it doesnt mean a lot.
But hey,you carry on as you are doing,I dont think anything you do is cruel,just not the best that could be done for the horse is all and I mistakenly thought you had asked a question and wanted input.

[Heather]

Ana, I must point out that here in the UK, we do not ride horses for more than very short periods at 3 yrs of age. We are taught that their bones are not fully formed and to ride them for long periods is damaging in the long term.

I would never ride a 3 yr old more than 30 mins, and then not at all strenuously. No jumping and even canter I would leave until the horse is 4 yrs old. We normally back them at 3, and then actually turn them away for the winter, and bring them back into work at 4 yrs old. Even then, the work would not be too hard, as the horse is not fully mature until 5 yrs. Then, they are ready for anything and stay sound into their late twenties, more often than not.

Heather

[Belbe]

Issy, I never complain about what you say, only the way you say it, you have to learn how to expose your views without placing people on their guard, otherwise you'll never convince anyone but the weak of mind. That's all I keep telling you.

What you call poorer musculature is simply less fat. He has a low set neck by conformation but is a stallion and therefore always places fat on the convenient places. Unfortunately, endurance work takes away all fat and the only muscles it creates are long thin muscles because it only requires slow twich muscle fibres to work, these fibres don't use sugar, only fat. Here's 2 examples of your everyday endurance runner or his horse counterpart:

2008 100mile winner of the Big Horn race:


random half marathon runner:


My goal is only build stronger sturdier tendons and ligaments and increase his bone density as I only intend to start schooling 2 years from now when he turns 5.

As for my mare, I’m not “working” the piaffe. I’m asking for 2-3 steps as just another trick to lighten her mood when she gets bored. She doesn’t have nor will ever have enough preparation to actually perform the piaffe unless I retire or ask someone else to work her. I simply don’t have the time.

[Belbe]

Thank you heather, now that's a simple, clear and effective way of pointing out a view. I should tend to agree, as this is also how I was taught. And i was going to wait untill he turned 4 but then my mare got lame and I decided just to back him for a try. turned ok, then decided to go for a hack on foot, worked ok, then tried riding, ok again, and because He always tells me when he's tired and I hop off, I just kept going. I most certainly wasn't expecting him to gain endurance so fast, my mare took a whole season! So yeah, I believe I'm rushing things, but I've also been reviewing all this matter because I've seen so many examples of horses and humans staying healthy working earlier that I know there's information missing.

Going up and downhill at a walk all day is phisiological for a horse at any age. The major problem is me sitting on top. However, It is also known that when a horse lowers his nose to graze, his whole thorax and abdominal contents are being supported mainly by his nuchal-to-tail ligament. Now as i've said, chopin thinks hacking is grazing out, so he spends the whole time with the nose on the ground either following horse tracks or grazing. This leaves me sitting on his ligaments and not his muscles (for some reason he's never sore). My only worry is really the extra weight on his leg joints but I've slackened off a bit because that's the whole reason I keep him barefoot: to ensure that a very good deal of the impact is absorbed in the hoof saving the joints. As for damaging the growth plates, I don't think the kind of exercise he does has much effect on those, but if it does, I'll know 15 years from now.