in hand video - to stimulate some conversation!

[shoveltrash]

i have never received professional instruction on "in-hand" training, so have read lots of books, watched vids, etc.  i thought that this one was interesting, in terms of body language, use of the whip, and movements he does.  obviously a bit more advanced (training half-steps?), but would like to hear from others what you like/dislike in this video!

PIAFFE - GROUND TRAINING

[ukica]

is it me or is that horse clamping his tail down the whole time?

[issywizz]

Not sure really,I dont have a problem with the way the chap is working,but the horse looks tight in his back to me-he isnt crossing atall well in the LY and his tail is held at a funny angle,so Im not sure that its the right time to be asking for half steps?

[issywizz]

Btw Trish there are some good clips of Kottas doing groundwork on dressagetrainingonline.com You do have to subscribe but its worth it if you want some training vids to watch-there are a lot of top instructors on there  and I do like Kottas' groundwork.

[Trudi]

Well I like the attitude of the horse, really trying all the time.

In my opinion he is blocked through the shoulder (the side reins don't help) and the trainer seems not to address this in any way. This results in the head and neck being totally 'apart' from the rest of the body.

The tail is not right and he's skippy behind; I'd want to slow it all down and see if I could get calm crosssing behind rather than that rushed avoidance that he shows.

Half steps would be the last thing on my mind.

[shoveltrash]

i too wondered about the side reins - and the above posts echo things i found troublesome as well.  i notice the trainer travels facing the horse at all times, is that typical? 

n my opinion he is blocked through the shoulder

so what would you advise for 'unblocking' the shoulder?  just trying to learn

[Trudi]

so what would you advise for 'unblocking' the shoulder?  just trying to learn

  me too Trish!

Well certainly I'd ditch the side reins, I never use them myself and find that if the horse can put his head/neck where he wants it will tell you lots about what's happening elsewhere.
The gentleman in the clip does ask the shoulder to yield (I prefer yield because it's not purely about movement but about the horse learning to stay up and carried in its shoulder and wither) but because there is so much else going on (the rushing behind, the resisting against the side reins) he doesn't get the full benefit.

I would basically split the horse in two and work the front and back separately. Starting with the shoulder I would move the horse around me asking plenty of 'yield' through the shoulder (aid for this starts at touch but can be refined to a voice aid or the physical aid of just stepping into his shoulder space). Then on to straight lines and asking the shoulder to yield (just as in leg yield but just letting the haunches do less). This is a cardinal sin in leg yield as the horse shouldn't really move excessively more through the shoulder or haunch but I threw that book away because it really does work to break the areas (shoulders and haunches) in two and address each separately.

Then you could go from the shoulder yield straight into some counter bend (counter shoulder- fore/in) as you already have the shoulder/wither up and balanced. As soon as you feel the shoulder resist change the bend for a few strides and go back to yielding the shoulder etc. of course lots of relaxed 'down' in between all this work.

Lots more exercises (remember the entwickeln shoulder-in one) but this is my favourite way at the moment. Probably the same as stuff you do with Nico.

Regarding his position, it's strange because I remember when I started training with an iberian type trainer that IW picked me up on my in-hand position   it really is different between the schools. I was taught to hold the whip differently and everything felt weirdly different. Since that point I have moved on a little. It's all about the basic building blocks and not (for me at least) about how you achieve those. Fundamentals not methods. So now I do what suits me (my brain, emotion, physical ability etc) and my horse ( his brain, emotion, physical ability). I look at what is in front of me and fix it the best way I know how and with my eyes wide open.

Sorry, getting a bit long here 

[issywizz]

Fillipa Valencia works the front and back end separately too.Its certainly easier.

[Heather]

I dont see a lot wrong with this- yes the horse isnt crossing a lot, but I dont think he is actually asking for this- he is asking for short and very collected steps. Although the hind end isnt 'sitting' a lot yet, you can see the engagement of the hindquarters starting to happen. I think the horse may be a little croup high minus his saddle, and I think that this horse is going to have a very nice piaffe if he carries on working him in this way. Yes there is some resistance, but this is to be expected at this stage.

I dont see him as tight through the back either, Sarah, the horse when working towards the piaffe in this way, really has to lift the back, and due to the very shortened steps, there will be little swing of the back/belly. Just my take on it, and thanks for posting Trish, just the sort of thing we need to start good conversation!!

Heather

[issywizz]

I think the horse is croup high because he isnt working through his back-therefore I dont think hes ready for this type of work.
This is great,Ive disagreed with Heather on two threads so far. 

[Trudi]

I guess part of the problem is not knowing anything about this horse. I don't have your experience Heather, by a long way, in training horses and I accept that when starting new work one will get tension from the confusion of learning something different.
However, I just can't see past the low side reins and how each time the horse looks for space to come up he meets the bit. Surely if the half step work starts like this then the resulting piaffe will be resistant and tense and the horse will always have that tight neck and shoulder (and hence back).
I can't tell if it's croup high; at moments it almost looks so but at others not...again I think without the side reins you would see a different front end.

What was your take on the tail? Could it have been broken? I always thought a clamped tail was a bad sign?

[Trudi]

x posted Sarah...hehe yes some disagreement at last (funnily enough not between you and I  )

[Heather]

The side reins are a little lower than would be used in Portugal, but this would be pretty typical of in hand work there, usually with check reins too. The trainer will face the horse for some work too- there are a number of different styles in in hand work.

Sarah, so how would you define whether he is working through his back?

Heather

[issywizz]

H,I would say he *isnt* working through his back because he is a 'horse in 3 parts'. The backend is up the frontend is unsteady being held down and trying to come up and the back is short.
If he was working through his back the whole thing would appear smoother-sure he is asking for half steps so one would expect some tension,but the horses topline should remain as one piece and reaching into the bridle.
Compare this with Anja Berans work-the topline and the rhythm is massively different-and her work is more 'French" in as much as she barely works with a contact by this stage,but nevertheless the fluidity and smoothness of topline is evident.

ETA and just *what* is with the tail? that carriage indicates pain to me?

[shoveltrash]

i wonder about the horse's tail - it looks like it might've been broken towards the tip?  that unnatural curve IMHO isn't related to the training exercises.

'went back & watched it again.  while i don't 'love' the restricted look of the front end, i actually think it's not a bad video - i don't see it being quite as disconnected as IW says?  there is tension, yes, but i've long wondered how much tension is acceptable, indeed unavoidable sometimes?  i remember EH doing beginning piaffe work in hand with our clinic host's horse.  lots of tension.  but he stopped/rewarded pretty frequently, then moved on.  if i remember correctly, he also faced the horse but did not do the 'moving the shoulders/moving the hips' at all (no side reins, i'm almost sure).  only focused on the articulation of the hind end & half steps from behind to start with.
i think this stuff is fascinating!!!!
to be able to teach a horse to *sit* in hand - what an invaluable exercise for strengthening the back!
when i visited Chapsi's yard, and saw her trainer work every horse in hand, even doing piaffe in the grooming bay , it opened my eyes to the possibilities.
altho i certainly lack the ability!

Trudi thanks for the explanation .  when are you going to videotape more of your cordero/in-hand stuff for us to watch?