Never mind Rollkur - what about side reins?

[JanetGeorge]

I understand you are backing youngsters for a living but I am a one horse owner and dont see any reason to rush her, and no I am not delaying getting on with it just want my horse to mature a bit more first so she has a better chance of staying sound, she is with me for life afterall

And that's a GREAT way to do it!  Have no argument with it at all and just wish all owners were as prepared to put in the time (and the money) to do the job as slowly and gently as that!  Hopefully you will be well rewarded by a sane, sensible horse who will stay sound for the next 20+ years, barring accidents!

Sadly, even with my home-bred youngsters, it's not practical because virtually NO buyers would pay the sort of price I'd HAVE to charge for my youngsters if we put SO much time in!  As it is, there is NO profit on a nice, well-backed youngster at £5,000 - and that's about the most I can charge for a pure-bred ID gelding or an IDSH gelding or filly who is rising 4, backed and riding quietly.  Plenty of people think that is too much!

And on our visiting youngsters - we charge £140 a week for full livery/backing and do a good job.  There's no profit in that either, sadly!  And very few of our clients are prepared to pay it for more than about 6 weeks, particularly if they're having to pay their existing livery yard to hold their space!

[winnieandben]

Sounds like you do a great job and produce well rounded horses.

I am loving spending the time with her but who knows if she will turn out any different if I had left her until she was 4 and just backed and ridden away.    I hope it will make a difference  

[catkin]

There may be some confusion here about exactly what people expect the 'backing process' means.

I agree with Janet that what I understand the backing process to be (getting on the horses back and teaching some brakes and steering, seeing some sights with someone up-top) usually takes a few weeks.

What it DOESN'T mean is starting from scratch with an absolutely untouched horse that doesn't know how to rub along with humans, been taught manners, what tack is, etc etc - that is the nursery-school education that starts when the foal drops to the ground, and in the case of my youngsters continues until they are on average 4 years old so that when we are ready to 'back' the groundwork is done and both horse and trainers can concentrate on the riding bit (and there's still enough surprises with the best prepared horse!). Of course, schooling takes a lifetime, there's always something new.

[Diane Smith]

Oh - I'm real!  And not a wind-up - just a desire to encourage debate - which seems to have worked!   I'm actually NOT implacably opposed to side reins and long reins - just to them being used badly for no particular reason.  I see from your profile, Diane, that you're nearly 20 years younger than I am and you probably don't have a totally blocked artery in one leg (which precludes walking any distance in a hurry - or running more than about 10 yards!)  So longreining PROPERLY is impossible for me!

I know you are real Janet, I was joking, I'm sure no one has any doubt that you are real.

No I'm happy to say I don't have a blocked artery in my leg, and I'm sorry to hear that you do, excuse my ignorance but can the blockage not be removed, isn't there a danger that it will shift to your heart,lung or brain?

In your position I wouldn't be long reining either, but perhaps you have a slightly distorted view of long reining, given that you are dealing with horses that have gained problems. The ones that have been taught well wont be ending up at your door.

Sadly, even with my home-bred youngsters, it's not practical because virtually NO buyers would pay the sort of price I'd HAVE to charge for my youngsters if we put SO much time in!  As it is, there is NO profit on a nice, well-backed youngster at £5,000 - and that's about the most I can charge for a pure-bred ID gelding or an IDSH gelding or filly who is rising 4, backed and riding quietly.  Plenty of people think that is too much!

And on our visiting youngsters - we charge £140 a week for full livery/backing and do a good job.  There's no profit in that either, sadly!  And very few of our clients are prepared to pay it for more than about 6 weeks, particularly if they're having to pay their existing livery yard to hold their space

Don't you have a bigger problem with this? I know I would.

[JanetGeorge]

No I'm happy to say I don't have a blocked artery in my leg, and I'm sorry to hear that you do, excuse my ignorance but can the blockage not be removed, isn't there a danger that it will shift to your heart,lung or brain?

The blockage IS part of the artery so it can't move - there are various treatments.  Pills didn't work.  It's not suitable for the 'blowing up' treatment (they insert a catheter into the artery and blow up a little balloon at the end to stretch the artery walls.)  And my vascular surgeon said I'm too young for surgery - unless it got to the point I couldn't walk at all (they do a graft with a bit of vein the first time, but if that breaks down they have to use a plastic graft - and they end up having to be replaced every 2 years!!)  So those of you who smoke, be warned!!  Smoking or high cholesterol are the most likely causes - and if you have it happen in your heart or your brain, walking becomes the least of your problems!

Don't you have a bigger problem with this? I know I would.

Well my husband certainly has a problem with it  - he has to help finance 'my little hobby' as he calls it!  However, when I start marketing my new 'school' of horsemanship, complete with DVDs and the special equipment that's just SO essential - and comes in prettier colours than a spare old leadrope or a length of class c pipe - I'll make my fortune!  The ONLY thing that's stopping me is coming up with a good name for it - maybe "No Sh*t Horsemanship" or something similar would do! 

[drummers mum]

Well, I have just caught up with this and its an interesting thread which has made me reflect on what I am doing with Livvi Keep stirring Janet!

For me, the ground work has been about building a relationship with Livvi, its the one thing I wasn't so confident with but I also needed to watch her and see how she reacted to things before I got on (she was an unbacked 6 year old). I am much happier on her back in the sense of knowing what I am doing but can also be nervous so ground work gave us confidence in each other.

We tried long reining to get Livvi going forwards, Lou showed me how to do it in a dually and with loopy reins andit worked but my attempts to take her mini hacking in the orchard were thwarted when she realised that she could get her head down and eat andthere wasn't a thing I could do about it!    I tried it with a bit and agree with Janet here that you can end up dragging on theor mouths it didn't work for us at all!

Livvi is starting to work quite nicely under saddle but I am still lunging her once a week as I think it is of benefit to her to build muscles and keep her clued into me.  We do pole work but I also put the side reins on loosly for a couple of minutes on each rein.  She is strating to reach into the contact and this has had the effect of making her lift her back and step under more.  Without them she will happily drag herself along on her forhand with her nose touching the floor!

As of Monday it will be too dark to ride after work (well I might manage it on a bright day for a week or so) but we have a lit area of paddock and a lit car park so I am planning on lunging and doing plenty of ground work in the week to keep us going.

[Flocklhouse]

Sorry been busy organising Becky's in hand/longg reining clinic up here 
You asked what benefits I found from long reining and in hand work? Well up until last year when I found EE I only ever long reined as knew nothing really about in hand. Why? My young horse (ID/TB) was 17.1hh at 3yrs and would trip over fresh air. My older chap at the time was 17:2hh and I NEVER did any ground work with him in the 14yrs I had him (ID/TB, what else  ). However, I carried him over crosss countries that he should have done himself, and we were competing up to Open WH, so I vowed any new horse would learn to stand on his own 4 feet, so started longreining. Like others we went out in long reins on hacks, jumped ditches, logs, went through paces at voice command etc, etc. He is now a REALLY athletic 11 year old and 18hh, and I continue to long rein and lunge with 2 lines through a roller.
I was crippled after my little boy was born, fractured pelvis, then dislocating knee, and now knee op recovery. I am not strong enough to ride properly until physio says so. I know many would just get on, and I would have a few years ago too, but my boy is so sensitive to aids that my unbalance would be sending all the wrong signals to him. Now this is not me being a hypochondriac, I have ridden in between each event but knee op was just 5 weeks ago and I had hoped to be back on by now.
No one will ride my boy. Even Perry Wood said he is just so athletic he could do someone a lot of damage, but I love him and we have an understanding 
So I long rein/use in hand work to:
1. Keep him working 2. Teach him new lateral moves 3. Supple him up without my hinderance of being on board 4. If I only have 15mins then some in hand around the yard is better than nothing IMO   
However Charlie is only one of 7 we have; we also have 4 ponies which I cannot ride so use in hand to teach them the aids so I can teach my little boy and the kids I teach on schooled ponies correctly.
I use it to supple my neurotic mare who is as stiff as a board and now I have these tools we are getting work out of her I have never seen before. I am also about to start our new young horse in hand.
I have also started freinds horses this way and it has been much quicker and easier as they have more of an understanding of what you are asking, and I just re schooled a lovely 14:2hh who had been tried out by about 10 people and no one took him. After a few months of retraining using in hand he is now away to a permanent home where he is loving PC. 
So pre in hand work I would just get on and it did take longer, but now things seem softer,quieter and generally quicker.
Sorry ended up being longer than expected but you did ask!!

[sandpiper]

Well I did inhand work with my horse horse for six months and I'm not ashamed to say it was because I was scared to ride him - he was the most hot, flighty, sensitive, spooky, explosive horse I've ever had (and ever wish to have!!!  ).  The time I spent with him was invaluable and if I hadn't done it I may have got rid of what became the most special horse I've ever had in my life  .  It built a trusting and respectful relationship between us and ingrained the vocal commands 100%.  I think that many people by-pass the inhand work because they are in a hurry to ride, but IMO ground work is the first vital building block and I don't think you can spend too much time doing it (unless it's done badly of course!).

I also use side reins and longline, the side reins allowed my horse to work into a contact (NOT tight!) instead of going around with his head in the air and hollow.  If he exploded while longlining (and it didn't happen often) then I would drop the lines - yes there was the risk of him treading on the lines and getting a brief jab in the mouth but better that than me hauling on the bit and most likely being pulled over!  It never happened anyway, and all that did happen was that he got used to lines flapping behind him  .

Remy is VERY upheaded to the point of being vertical at times  and I also use side reins on her, if I didn't then she would just go around like a giraffe and hollow and I'd achieve nothing.  The side reins (attached loosely) encourage her to reach into the contact and I can't see that what I am doing is harmful in any way  .

Yes 'gadgets' used badly can be instruments of torture - but surely this applies to ANY piece of tack including bits and spurs?

[Belbe]

I want my horses to carry their own heads - rather than seeking to have them held up/in/down/flexed etc.

Brilliantly said!!!

anyway, speaking of auxiliary reins, I just opened up this website to make an order for my shop and instantly felt like closing again!
http://www.komutekir.com

who the hell jumps in draw-reins?? It's despairing to see how normal and acceptable all this is! I've owned dogs my whole life and know them to be in general, less sensitive than horses, but it would be a on the international news if someone was caught doing the things we do to horses to our dogs! *#@%!!