Never mind Rollkur - what about side reins?

[JanetGeorge]

So much more evidently in use - at all levels.  I think I DO have a pair - somewhere - but I can't remember the last time I used them!   And I tend to shudder when someone tells me - when they bring a youngster for backing - that he's 'lunging well in side reins'!

And even if they don't mention it, you can tell - as soon as you start working with a youngster!  This chap is a perfect example. 

Newly backed gelding

He'd been branded 'unbreakable and dangerous' by a so-called 'trainer' - he wasn't - but it was pretty evident he'd been lunged in side reins because from the start, he went around like a little show pony (I call it 'assuming the position'!)  The video shows, I think, the problem.  He's not behind the vertical, but he stays pretty much close to it which in a horse that's only been under saddle just isn't 'natural' IMHO!

We DON'T use side reins or long reining at all with youngsters (or anything else come to think of it) - to my mind it just inhibits them going forward properly and makes it more difficult to get them working to a proper contact under saddle. 

Any thoughts??

(I should add it's not me riding - the jockey is a young Frenchman who works for me - he bounces far better than I do these days! )

[jenb]

Couldn't agree more.  We had a thread about this subject just a few weeks ago.     I have never used them on Gazdag and really cannot get my head around why people use them.

[whisper's mum]

I was advised to put side reins on Spirit and leave her in the stable to teach her to accept the contact ... needless to say I didn't.  I tried using them once on the lunge when I first started her and she went backwards - I didn't bother again. I haven't managed to get her long reining even now, although she will do a bit inhand,  but lots of people have suggested I do - what problems does that cause in your opinion, Janet?

[acb.antonia]

I'm still a bit undecided on this. 

I discussed it with Anja Beran on her last clinic and I said 'why don't you like to use side reins when lunging?'  she just said

'Why  use side reins.'

After a bit of a discussion amongst the group at dinner we concluded that the English like to use lunging as an exercise in itself, whereas, in a lot of other places it is simply used as a way to cast your eye over the horse and check it's paces and development- this is all that Anja uses it for and so the side reins would just hinder this.

I suppose, if you get good results without, then why bother?

[JanetGeorge]

I was advised to put side reins on Spirit and leave her in the stable to teach her to accept the contact ... needless to say I didn't.   I tried using them once on the lunge when I first started her and she went backwards - I didn't bother again. I haven't managed to get her long reining even now, although she will do a bit inhand,  but lots of people have suggested I do - what problems does that cause in your opinion, Janet?

EEEK!  A friend of mine went to check out a big yard where she was planning to send her youngster - found half a dozen standing in the stables in side reins "to mouth them"!  Needless to say she travelled an extra 80 miles and brought him to me!

i can't see that side reins teach a horse ANYTHING - except to hold its head in a set position!  It doesn't teach them responsiveness, or anything else useful.  Long reining - done with far more skill than I possess - may well have a useful role in some circumstances (just can't think of any at present) but with youngsters I feel it will cause them to overbend and not go forward properly (and it's too much like hard work anyway!)  I DO sometimes lunge with two reins, with a horse that just doesn't get the message re staying out on the circle - or slowing down when asked - but again - I don't think I've done it in the past 5-6 years!

I sometimes suspect that folk who do a LOT of lunging, long-reining etc with youngsters are just trying to delay the moment when they have to get on board!

[JanetGeorge]

I'm still a bit undecided on this. 

I discussed it with Anja Beran on her last clinic and I said 'why don't you like to use side reins when lunging?'  she just said

'Why  use side reins.'

I like her thinking!  Of course, a lot of people who use side reins, running reins and other gadgets do so because they CAN'T get good results without.  Of course, if they can't get good results without, chances are they won't get good results WITH!

We don't lunge much normally - just a few days with a youngster being backed, unless a horse has developed a problem that precludes a saddle (my 4 year old colt managed to roll on a rock in his field and grazed his back - right where the saddle goes, for example, so he's on the lunge at present while back heals.)  Apart from anything else, going around in circles makes ME dizzy - can't think it's much more fun for a horse.

The PROBLEM I see with side reins is horses tend to lean/depend on them.  You take them off and the neck turns into a snake - wriggling around looking for support!  I want my horses to carry their own heads - rather than seeking to have them held up/in/down/flexed etc.

[jenb]

I use lunging as an exercise in itself, and never use gadgets...     I know I'm very lucky to have been taught to lunge well - using the WHOLE arena, lots of straight lines, big circles, little circles, changes in tempo, gait, etc....  It's bl00dy hard work doing it that way, running to keep up with a cantering horse down the long side is not easy!!

I do disagree that people who do lots of ground work are delaying backing the horse....     Gazdag arrived in June, very skinny and poor and frightened.  I thought it was only fair to allow him several months to fill out, muscle up, relax and learn the ropes with me before getting on board.  Plus my trainer advised that he always works a horse from the ground for around three months before backing, teaching them the whole repertoire of the aids and movements from the ground, so that when you finally get on board they know a lot of schooling aids and how to move their bodies already.  Worked well for me!

[Claire]

I sometimes suspect that folk who do a LOT of lunging, long-reining etc with youngsters are just trying to delay the moment when they have to get on board!

that's a bit unfair, janet.

i'm currently doing a fair amount of longlining with my 15 year old who suffers confidence issues, and it's paying off; larridb is with her youngster, probably for hte same reasons (i picked up the idea of doing this frm her) but not in the arena - out and about round the land...

in the arena, we'll do (essentially) 2 rein lunging & longlining - but more, as i say, going out

and it used to be that horses were regularly longlined out - probably back in the day when there was little traffic! - to get them used to the world and have the confidence to take stuff on themselves rather than being led...

[catkin]

IMHO longreining cannot be lumped in with using sidereins whilst lunging as there is always a connection between horse and handler.

I'm no expert but I have used longreining to very good effect for many years on youngsters and older horses (originally under the tutelage of a true old-fashioned horseman and latterly have been lucky enough to step it up a level through lessons with Becky Holden, so I have been well taught) It is a wonderful technique for schooling, though done correctly it is never an 'easy option' for 'a bit of exercise' but as much of a partnership and as intellectually challenging as riding. And no, we don't longrein to 'put off getting on', it is to physically and mentally prepare the horse for the work to come.

[visconde]

so the likes of Ritter, Jenny Franklin, Hinrichs et al dont know how to work a horse correctly in side reins?or the SRS or the Portuguese school? I dont think they are the work of the devil used sensitively-would rather side reins than a pessoa personally. I sometimes choose in hand and ground work over riding as good ground work is an art in itself and I'll probably have more chance of being good at that than at riding 
lets not start condeming everything out of hand otherwise we'll all be treeless, barefoot and bitless before we know it...oh, hang on 

[Diane Smith]

Is this a wind up?

I long rein all my horses, young and old, and I'm very happy with the results, and I'm also perfectly happy doing hard work.

[JanetGeorge]

I use lunging as an exercise in itself, and never use gadgets...    I know I'm very lucky to have been taught to lunge well - using the WHOLE arena, lots of straight lines, big circles, little circles, changes in tempo, gait, etc....  It's bl00dy hard work doing it that way, running to keep up with a cantering horse down the long side is not easy!!

I used to lunge like that - and it's a very different matter to lunging as it's too often done!  But no WAY can I do it now (health issues and old age) - but I have NO argument with people fit enough and talented enough to lunge well!

I do disagree that people who do lots of ground work are delaying backing the horse....    Gazdag arrived in June, very skinny and poor and frightened.  I thought it was only fair to allow him several months to fill out, muscle up, relax and learn the ropes with me before getting on board.  Plus my trainer advised that he always works a horse from the ground for around three months before backing, teaching them the whole repertoire of the aids and movements from the ground, so that when you finally get on board they know a lot of schooling aids and how to move their bodies already.  Worked well for me!

That WAS a bit tongue in cheek! (Haven't worked out how to use smileys here).  Of course there are often good reasons to delay getting on (although I think many of my clients wouldn't be amused if I did 3 months of ground work before horse was backed!)  I also think 3 months is rather more than is needed - I find that 2 weeks of lunging is PLENTY to teach a horse to obey voice commands (whoa being the crucial one!)  And a horse knows fine how to use his body when he doesn't have a rider on board - I'd rather spend more time on teaching a horse balance and self carriage under the rider - even if most/all the work has to be done in walk initially.

Most people can't afford to have a horse with a trainer for more than 3 months to get it backed and riding quietly - nice for those who can.  The little horse in the video I posted took a total of 5 weeks to get to that point - and that's rather more than we usually need.  But he'd had a bad start and was very tense (and there was always just a teensy chance that the trainer who branded him 'dangerous' was right!)

But a friend has just had a horse back from a well-known trainer.  He was there 4 months (at an astronomical weekly rate!) and came back with the instruction that he MUST be lunged for at least 30 minutes before being mounted.  To my mind, that's a bad job!

[JanetGeorge]

so the likes of Ritter, Jenny Franklin, Hinrichs et al dont know how to work a horse correctly in side reins?or the SRS or the Portuguese school?

I'm sure they do - but a HELL of a lot of people don't!  (If you don't believe me, check out how often someone asks on H&H and other forums: "How do I teach my horse to lunge/longrein/etc.?"  They DON'T ask - as they should: "How do I learn how to lunge/longrein correctly?"

My dislike of longreining for youngsters being backed is partly based on the number of horses we get in to back who HAVE been longreined!  Now probably all those people did it incorrectly - but with 1 or 2 exceptions, every horse we have in that HAS been longreined doesn't accept the bit anywhere NEAR as easily as the ones who haven't been longreined - they tuck their noses onto their chests to avoid it.

And my other reason is common sense and experience.  Now when you start a youngster longreining - hopefully having taught it voice aids first - what can you do if the horse takes fright and takes off in gallop??

As I see it, you only have 3 options:
1.  Let it go (not a great option as frightened horse now has longlines chasing him!)
2.  Run like hell (but even Seb Coe would struggle to keep up with a galloping horse)
3.  PULL on the reins and hope he gets the message before he pulls you flat on your face!

I like to avoid ANYTHING that might necessitate pulling on the reins!

Obviously with an educated horse it's a different matter.  And in-hand work can be very valuable with any horse.  I did actually set out a few weeks ago to brush up my skills at ground work (when Simon Battram was here for a clinic) - and he introduced my big colt to the idea.  I quickly abandoned it - it's a long time since I did any and I was a lot younger and healthier then!  Seeing how hard he had to work - and he's a lot younger, fitter and stronger than I am - I decided riding Rambo was definitely the easier option! 

[issywizz]

Im with Visconde on this-cant really decide for myself but dont feel that you can dismiss the work of folk such as the SRS.
However the ABUSE of side reins such as you describe-too tight,used to force a shape,left on etc etc is a different matter altogether.

[issywizz]

Btw I would always tend to work a young/bolshy horse in a small area first so that I had basic control sorted out without the need to resort to force-I like to work them loose at first then off a halter so that all the basic control/body language stuff is already there before I attatch a line-and especially before long lining.