What's wrong with my horse?

[Gemma]

Hi everyone,

I’ve not posted here for a while as I let my membership lapse.  I hope you all don’t think I’m being cheeky by coming back to post about my problems, but of all the equine forums this is by far the friendliest place and you all give really supportive advice.

Here goes…

Tutti (the chestnut in my signature pic) is my homebred 16.1, 8yr warmblood mare.  Cali (the bay in the signature) is her dam and is now 24yrs and I still regularly ride her.  They are kept together with our little companion pony.

I know all the problems I’m about to explain are down to my lack of knowledge and experience at the time.  We had never bred a foal before – Cali was put in foal as at the time I had lost interest in riding a bit during 6th Form, and it was my mum’s idea to put her in foal.

I treated Tutti like a pet when she was a baby – running around the field with her, not doing any basic training – I remember trying to lead her for the first time – just sticking the head collar on and expecting her to follow me – which she objected to.  I remember putting the pair of them in the trailer when Tutti was about 4 months old but they both ran out the back because the car alarm went off unexpectedly so I never tried again until I actually wanted to take Tutti somewhere years later.

Tutti was naturally weaned by Cali at about 2yrs, I never separated them when she was a foal.  I “halter trained” Tutti (Monty Roberts style) when she was about 2yrs old and did “join up”.

She had to go away to the equine clinic just before she was backed because of an eye infection and she stayed there for 10 days away from home.

Apart from trying a bit of lunging (which didn’t go that successfully) I didn’t do much with her until she was sent away for backing the January before she was 4yrs (birth date May).

She was only away for a month to be backed and in that time I had a couple of lessons on her and hacked her out a couple of times at the yard she was backed at.

When she came back I continued to have lessons with the guy that backed her for a couple of months.  He never told me anything like “I wouldn’t spend too much time in the school – get her riding out, go out around the fields” (we keep them on a large-ish farm).

So I just rode in the school most days and I took her to a couple of riding club training sessions – literally a couple.

That Autumn I finally got her riding out as I got a friend to ride Cali out with us.  So each weekend we got to ride out together.

Looking back now I’m sure she was far more settled, calmer and relaxed back then when we started riding out than she is now.

So, that routine carried on for a couple of years – schooling, riding out and going to the odd riding club thing.

Then, April 2008 she was diagnosed with grade 2 stomach ulcers (although, the ridden behaviour which was being caused by the pain of the ulcers had been going on since the summer 2007).

Before she was eventually diagnosed her ridden behaviour was getting worse – every time you put your leg on she would stop, kick out, get very stroppy / angry, refuse to go forward.  It was a nightmare / battle to ride each day.

As soon as she was on medication for the stomach ulcers this behaviour stopped within a week – I had a nice horse back to ride.

So, we carried on as usual whilst she was being treated (it took about 6 months in total for the ulcers to clear) – the same old – schooling, riding out, the odd riding club thing.

During this time we also had saddle issues, which was resolved but obviously didn’t help with the ulcers and meant more time off work.

At this point her schooling was coming on leaps and bounds and she was working like a “proper” dressage horse – I was really proud of us both.

Then everything started to go downhill again.

For whatever reason I had left it a while between riding club events – the last time we went out was the end of May 2009 and it took me over 20 minutes to get her tacked up because she was so anxious / excited and then it took over 30 mins to get her to load to go home.

We haven’t been anywhere since or trailer practiced.

Then, about the end of June I decided to have her back shoes off – she had been barefoot until she was about 6 years old, so had only had shoes on for a couple of years.  I just thought she’d be fine and better without her back shoes.

A couple of days after having her back shoes off she started the “stopping” behaviour whilst being ridden.  But it was different this time compared to the ulcers.  She would just stop and plant and not get angry.

I checked the pulse in her feet and she had a very strong pulse in one hind leg.  I got her on a small restricted paddock and with exercise after the pulse had gone she started to loose a bit of weight (she is now about 740 kilos).  But she still kept stopping and not wanting to work – it’s always been the same since the ulcers – get her trotting around for a bit, give her a couple of mins walking to get her breath back, then when you want to go back into trot she refuses / thinks she’s finished.

When the farrier came out the other week he checked her back feet with the hoof testers and he said she was not sore at all in her back feet and they were very strong, so we didn’t get the back shoes put back on and the ridden behaviour of stopping couldn’t be to do with having her shoes off.

I just wish if only I hadn’t had her shoes taken off she would be fine now.

During this whole time I had also begun to get her riding out so far by herself.

The horses are kept at the top of a hill, so I can ride at the bottom of their field and up and down the hill still in semi sight of Cali and pony.

So, I had got Tutti riding around this field by herself – and even into another field, a short way, completely out of sight of the other horses.

She would be happy to trot and canter along the bottom of the field and I even got her going over a few small jumps.

Then a few weeks ago she started to object to riding along the hedge line of the bottom of this field.  The usual – stopping, not wanting to go forwards, stropping.

She has always been a bit of a “hot” mare but she seems more so over the last few weeks.  When we rode out with my friend and Cali the other day she completely freaked out in a far field because there were tractor noises in the distance and I had no option but to get off and lead her all the way back to the farm – she wouldn’t let me get back on even when we were away from the noise.

Then, came Tuesday’s incident this week…

I was riding around the bottom of the horse’s field as usual – trying to get her to go along the hedge line as she’s still refusing to go near it.

My mum and dad suddenly drove down the field in the farm truck to do something in one of the other fields – which Tutti had a bit of a strop about.

But then, the 20 or so cows in the field (that were previously quiet eating the grass) started running after the truck which made Tutti freak out completely.

I managed to jump off her but I didn’t step to the side quick enough (I am usually able to keep hold of her from the ground when she’s “freaking out”) and she literally bowled me over and knocked me to the ground – ran over the top of me and ran off round the field and back to the top by their part of the field.

Luckily we’re both fine.  I just have a huge bruise on my lower back that seizes up if I sit down for too long.

There have been several times that I’ve thought – in the pit of my stomach – if she wasn’t here everything would be fine.

I remember one day a while ago I saw her lying flat out in the field and for a split second I thought “oh my god she’s dead” and then for another split second I was overcome with relief that my life would be simpler without her.

Then yesterday when she charged off and ran up the field she started to slip up the hill, and again, for a split second I thought “if she breaks her legs she’ll have to be put down – what a relief”.

If I’m thinking that then maybe that’s why she resents me so much and we can never get on.  But I know I could NEVER have her put down for the reason of making my life simpler.  I wouldn’t be able to live with myself – I’d go crazy.  To me, she’s like my child – I can’t get rid of her and let someone else have her, I really don’t want to do that.

But what else can I do?

I thought of turning her away for a few months and then start again – pretend that she doesn’t know anything and start from the beginning.  I’ve asked other people about this and they have said they have also tried this with horses but it really doesn’t make a difference.

I could send her away to a professional yard for a month for schooling.

My mum’s getting all angry and shouting about it all which doesn’t help.  She says “oh just put her in foal and turn her away for a year” – what would be the point in that?  And besides, it’s too late in the season to put a horse in foal.

I’ve tried so many calming products – magnesium, Indian Herbs products, Naf Tempralax, Oxyshot more recently.  The only thing that’s sort of worked is long term magnesium just to take the edge off her, and she hasn’t had it for a while, so it’s probably worth starting that up again.

I just don’t know what to do.

I also really don’t know how I’m going to get back on her and ride her out again – even with Cali riding with us.  Yesterday has really knocked my confidence when usually I’m able to put up with her odd / stroppy behaviour.

Thanks for listening, everyone, and sorry for such a long post.  If anything it’s helped me vent.

Gemma x

[Mandeigh]

 

Assuming there's nothing physically wrong and its not due to the ulcers......how about working her harder?

Does she lunge?  This is a great way to take the edge of a sharp horse and I actually do a fair bit of schooling on the lunge.  Also sounds like you could do with someone to be eyes on the ground just to help you rebuild your confidence.

[heidi66]

Hello Gemma

   How lovely to see you back  

Will send proper email soonest    (done!)

Very best wishes, H  

[Gemma]

thanks for the advice, mandeigh - i was thinking the other day i should school before riding out, or lunge before schooling - although, because of the ridden probs she's also taken a disliking to being lunged lately - turning in and 'stropping' on the right rein only.  but she is very good to loose school, so i could do that more often before riding.

hello heidi sorry for lack of communication :( will check email now!

gemma x

[Claire]

i'd perhaps get max out (if you've the money) , and lots of groundwork and despooking, and then have regular lessons from an EET local to you (if any) and interspersed with those get someone to hack out with you on Cali.

or an RA, if there's one near you.

where are you, btb?  someone may be able to suggest someone who might be able to help

[TashaKat]

It might be worth speaking to Emma Lethbridge (Kassidy on here).  She's an EET and behaviouralist.  She's excellent for the type of problems that you describe and works predominantly with positive reinforcement.

For some reason I can't get her website up but you can contact her via her forum:  http://emmalethbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi

She's based in Sheffield but does travel to neighbouring areas and goes down to Berkshire fairly frequently.

[Bradders]

I feel so sorry for you  Sounds like you have got yourselves stuck in a bit of a rut - been there, done that, got the T shirt - so you are not alone

Think getting some help/advice from someone like Kassidy is a great idea.

Maybe do some ground work with her to build up your trust again?

Good luck

[Cloud_cirrus]

I would put her back on the magnesium if that helped before and then give her the benefit of the doubt and do all the physical checks like back, teeth, saddle, make sure the ulcers haven't come back etc.  Her weight seems quite high for her height as well, is that weight correct?

When she is all clear of that then I would do what the others suggest and do some ground work in the school with her.  Regular lessons from someone you touch will also really boost your confidence I think.

Finally, it sounds like you are putting quite a bit of pressure on yourself to ride her which is impacting on your relationship with her, do you actually have to ride her?  Could you say to yourself, I'm not going to ride this horse for say three months (do groundwork, clicker, spookbusting stuff instead) and see if that changes the way you feel about her?

[Gemma]

hi everyone and thanks for your advice

i have actually emailed emma (kassidy) before about seperation aniexty problems with the pair of them, but emma didn't come out as far as me (bristol) so i got jenni nellist instead for that problem, which worked well.

i do know of an RA local to me and would prob be cheaper than richard maxwell, but i'm not too sure how the person works, what results they get - i've heard mixed reviews 

her weight - yes, she is that weight! - the weigh tape says 732 but i know sometimes they are not quite accurate.  she has a very deep girth and is quite big boned - which is why people comment that they think she is much bigger than 16.1 but she is only *just* 16.1 with the measure stick!  i think she has lost about 20 kilos since the 'laminitis' incident and she looks even trimmer at the moment, so may have lost some more.

she had her back checked just after the shoes were taken off when this behaviour started again and our mctim chiro found nothing wrong with her at all - she has worked with my horses since tutti was born so i trust her expertise and she has also seen tutti in a very bad back state some years before.

she also had her teeth checked about three months ago - again, everything was fine - she's never had any probs with teeth or mouth.

i really don't think it could be the ulcers back - as it turned out when the ulcers finally cleared it was most likely suspected they had been caused by a bacterial infection (what causes the majority of stomach ulcer cases in humans) as the ulcers literally disapeared within a month of antibiotics (previous to that we were using gastroguard which had very little effect on the ulcers over 5 months).  also the ulcer behaviour was very gradual but this behaviour has come on very quickly.

no, i suppose i don't *have* to ride her - as long as she is getting exercised enough to keep her weight down.  i feel presured by my mum, bless her, to keep riding her because i suppose that's seen as the traditional way of keeping a horse fit and also by hearing / seeing what other people are doing in my riding club (how easy is it for them to jump on their youngster, take it too to 'camp', win a dressage event first time etc - i really can't stand hearing about it all).

the only worry i have with just doing ground work is keeping her interested, worrying that she thinks she already knows it all so i don't want to start confusing her, and what sort of things could i do?  she loose schools very well (can make her walk 10 meter circles by blocking her, goes off voice commands only etc).  i tried clicker training once but she ended up nearly biting my finger off - there was blood! - so i didn't try it again.  i've also tried long reining but i couldn't get to grips with it by myself.  i suppose other things i could try would just be to lead her around the fields by herself - i have a dually headcollar which she seems to *know* she has to behave in!

thanks again everyone for all your help - i really, really appreciate it  

[Tabitha]

Hi first have some of these    

Out of interest what type of Warmblood is she? And what are her lines?  Some sires are known for breeding hot horses and you may just have to accept it's part of her personality.  But if it's any help at all, I've been here too - although not because of stomach ulcers.  What worked for me was taking time to look at the whole of my horse's management routine and trying to spot the overarching issues rather than the detail.

First keep a diary for a while.  You have to be pretty disciplined about this but it does work. Note anything in it like the weather, her weight (I only measured this once a week), changes in feed, the length of time for exercise, what you did, seasons and so on and look for patterns, for example you may find that something about her seasons have changed or even that you've made more progress than you give yourself credit for.

Second, have you the option of fencing a bit of the paddock off for her?  In view of the other horses, but not with them? You sound like you need to start building up a bit of space between them.  Her confidence is obviously much higher when she with her 'herd' and trying to get her to break that bond and have more confidence in you will take time and patience.  Plus, it sounds like she could do with reducing the grazing for a while anyway.

Third, if there are things that make her 'better' then I would stick with them... the magnesium and the shoes for instance.  

Fourth, I'd get her checked out for ulcers again.  It sounds like your work routine has been pretty potted over the last few months, and you may have missed something.

Fifth, if there are no physical issues, then I would up her work.  Keep it in  a strict routine - work her in the morning and in the evening and for a while I'd try it 7 days a week. If you lunge or do ground work in the morning, aim to ride in the evening.  This will obviously depend on your level of confidence, but IMO 'hot' warmbloods benefit from a strict exercise routine and plenty of mental stimulation.  Some are absolute sweeties, but the hotter ones need handling and working like they're on a 'professional' yard. Consistency is key.

Finally, there is no shame in your own feelings of whether or not you want to keep her, or whether or not you ride her.  Horses are like people in that what suits one person doesn't always suit another.  Some horses you will get on with, others you won't.  Just remember this is 'supposed' to be fun - albeit challenging at times  .  Being frightened of your horse is not fun, and there will be a solution (although always the easiest one) which works for you and her, you just have to look for it.

In the meantime have some more of these  

[ChrissieW]

Won't add to all the good advice already given, just wanted to add support really 

Except to add, although may be a bit simplistic, but personally if the current round of behaviour started when you had the shoes off, despite appearances that her feet are coping fine, isn't it worth putting them back on and seeing if that makes her happier?    To me that would be worth a try as the behaviour started at the same time and is simple and easy thing to check out before going down more complicated, expensive routes.

Funny you should say that about warmbloods and breeding lines Tabitha.    A good friend of mine has a HannoverianxTB who has had more than her fair share of issues with both mental and physical and a physio who saw him last year straight away on hearing his breeding said "oh yes, this line is reknowned for muscle/body problems" which are the root of a lot of his problems.     

[Tabitha]

ChrissieW - well I have to confess I do have my own opinions on the way we breed sports horses at the moment, which not everyone will agree with me on and I'll try to keep them brief. 

Essentially, horse breeding - and inbreeding - is a massive industry these days to the point where we all know and discuss the issues this brings with it in terms of the physical problems such as in-breeding osteochondrosis and so on.  However, you rarely hear much about the impact of breeding on the temperament on horses except for the anecdotal evidence. In fact - if you read the blurb on prospective stallions they always have a 'fabulous temperament' which is more of a marketing ploy than fact.  In reality - not every horse is going to be a lovely person and with WB studbooks being as big as they are, there is greater opportunity for variation.

It makes sense that even with the best bred horse in the world, with the most fantastic movement, if it doesn't have the temperament then it's not going to the do job you want it to. Most of the WB stallions that are used are produced by professionals who have the ability to mask a number of sins when it matters most - in the competition ring.  Nevertheless it does not necessarily make them lovely horses to own for your average good competitive amateur. 

Now for the big speculation bit... The problem is, we don't tend to take into account the mare's temperament as much when breeding, we look at their family tree from the sire's perspective.  However, a lot of WB mares - particularly on the continent - tend to go straight back into the breeding programme and although they are assessed for for rideability, handling and temperament at keurings etc they do not necessailry have the competitive lifespan in the same way a gelding or a stallion and IMO you never really know how a horse will handle life and all it's ups and downs until it is fit and in full-time work.

So you can breed to the most fantastic stallion, who may have a temperament to die for, but how the gene mix manifests itself in terms of temperament in the female line is anyone's guess. The only way of knowing is to look at how many of the mares out of a particular sire are being ridden competitvely.  The chances are the more that are out there the better they are.

In the last 3 - 4years the KWPN stud book have started to discuss about the importance of understanding the dam lines, but how much this transpires into practice when there is money to be made...? Well lets say I'm cynical but it is an interesting debate and one which I watch and listen to with interest!

... Of course, none of the above may be relevant in the OP's thread, and somewhere in my waffle there is probably a thread of sense, so I'll calmly step off my soap box now!   

[ChrissieW]

  interesting thanks Tabitha, completely agree.    Might have to pick your brains next year when I start looking for a youngster, as am paranoid about warmbloods and their problems and don't really know enough about the breeding lines to make an educated decision.

Sorry Gemma, will stop hijacking your thread now and hope you find a good solution to your problems with your mare 

[shoveltrash]

welcome back Gemma
sorry to read about your problems though

i'd second the advice from above posts: go back to when she was 'ok,' and try to recreate that scenario firstoff (shoes, diet, turnout, etc). 
lunge before riding - make it your routine, always.  how does she lunge?  i'm not talking running around in frantic circles, but proper lunge training, using lots of transitions, voice cues, praise/rewards.  THEN get on and start off with only very short riding sessions.  END ON A GOOD NOTE.  build from there, slowly.
imho horses like settling in to a "routine", i know my youngster does. 
it sound like she is maybe overfaced?  going back to some basics and building on that might indeed help you both feel successful .

[catkin]

Sorry to hear about your problems

You mentioned that she understood the way the Dually headcollar worked  would it be of use to start doing some groundwork in it, then longreining in it. I have found it a very useful bit of kit - although it doesn't have the 'precision' of the bit lots of horses go kindly in it - I have used it to ride in when the 4 year old ws teething badly.