feet bobbing up and down

[acb.antonia]

Hi

Just wondering if anybody has any tips for keeping the feet back and still?  I train with a great classical trainer but despite all our lunge lessons and finally developing good control everywhere else in my body I can't seem to keep my heels back and down. 
My back is naturally more hollow than average (think this is called lordosis of the spine) and I have put a lot of effort into trying to flatten it and tuck my pelvis under but each time my instructor reminds me to 'lenghen the leg, heels back and down, imagine roots to the ground, imagine trying to touch your horses hind feet with your heels, open the hips and relax the legs'  I can't do it without tipping forwards in the seat- or if I do manage to do it effectively I can't hold it for more than a few strides.  I'm quite fed up about it now and am keen to get the position right before I progress with the horses training.  I'm also due to ride on a clinic at the end of May and I would really like to get a good sitting trot before then!  Not impatient at all then!  Any help would be much appreciated.

Antonia

[Heather]

Hi Antonia,

Several things- are your stirrup bars central to the saddle flap, or well forward of this position? It makes a HUGE difference. Also the heel should not be more than 1/2" or so below the toe- any more and your calf muscle will tighten, and prevent a subtle leg aid from being possible.

Forget trying to think about touching your horses hind feet with your heels- think instead of having your toe directly under your knee, so that you cant see the toe when you glance down- let your leg just hang from the hip. Any further back than this and you will indeed tip forwards! Any pics, and even better, video?

Heather

Heather

[acb.antonia]

thanks, will try and get a video- I'd like to see it myself!  I have discussed with my instructor the possibility of the problem being with the stirrups but she's sure it's not that, they seem fine but I will check the positioning of the bar- didn't realise it was supposed to be central to the saddle flap.  Plus my heels bob up and down without the stirrups- I suggested that I should see if I can find some exercises to do to help loosen any stiffness I've got but she says that my problem is that my ankles are too loose already and I need to 'just hold' them in place which will come with practice and the develoment of some tone.  Pretty annoying though when it's not happening. 

.......why can't srs just ring up and offer me a place!

[Heather]

Whereabouts are you? It never ceases to amaze me how even classical instructors do not recognise the logic that if the stirrup bars are actually more or less in front of the thigh, that in order to achieve the ear/shoulder/hip/heel line, the rider has to hold the leather back at 45 degrees. When the leather hangs perpendicularly under the thigh, there is no effort to maintain the line of balance- simple as that!!

For instance, when does it happen the most? Which pace, or all? Or is it say, sitting trot especially. This is often the worse pace.

Heather

[acb.antonia]

My feet seem to slip forwards in all paces but the bobbing up and down is in rising and worst in sittting trot- I can do my best concentrating and they still move!  Stirrup bars seem fine.  I will post a video as soon as I can find a willing camera man!

[Heather]

Hi Antonia,


Try to get some video and I will be happy to have a look for you, in case there is something I can suggest!

What height and build are you, and what size/breeding is your horse?- and also how big a mover. All have relevance as to how well you can sit!

Heather

[acb.antonia]

I'm a bit of a borrower- 5'2!  and slim build.  Paloma is an oldenburg, just over 16 hds and slightly long in the back.  I wouldn't say she's particularly big moving, just average.  I tried to keep a check on my toes today and I don't think they really come infront of the knee but I can't tell what my feet are doing!  I know theres movement there but I would need someone on the ground to point it out. 
I'm having 3 lessons with Gill in a fortnights time so I will sit down with her and have a proper chat about exactly where she wants my legs to be and I will analyse some pictures with her.
You good riders make it look effortless but my god it's hard to acheive the classical position.  I even decided to email Janice Dulak today to get some ideas off her and she (aswell as trying to sell me her dvd!) has given me some exercises to do.  So tonight I will drag out the pilates mat and possibly even pray to God on the matter and that way I've got you, Gill, Janice, God and determination on my side and so I expect to have the finesse of Podhajsky by the end of the week 

[Heather]

Does your saddle have velcroed knee rolls, Antonia?

Heather

[acb.antonia]

no

[annep]

.....I can totally sympathise with all the effort and frustration.....I have a right leg with a mind of its own- creeps up-or somewhere so thst despite my best efforts i keep losing that stirrup-either partly or sometimes totally .......that'll be one for Heather when I come to the August Equisimulator weekend...........Do hope you get sorted out Antonia-you are so right when you say how easy some people can make it look...and we soooo much want to get it right!!! I have my problem on any horse I ride-wonder of thats the same for you too??? Good luck

[Della]

Just a thought - you mention that you have a fairly large lordosis and are trying to sit with the pelvis tucked under to flatten it out.

I often find that people with a larger than average lordosis are helped, not by tucking the pelvis (which will make the legs move around) but by  sitting on the seat bones and keeping the pelvis 'vertical' - can't describe this any other way, but basically just sit on your bum.

Then, think of softening and SLIGHTLY allowing the upper body to tip forward A BIT, from the solar plexus. Imagine someone has tapped you gently in that area. You will feel a bit like you are slouching if you are accustomed to sitting very erect, but the horses don't seem to mind, and you have your pelvis in the correct place in the saddle so that your legs can just hang down without having to think about their position (always assuming that, as Heather has said, the stirrup bars are in the right place!)!

I have worked with many people with this condition and the results from adopting this position will beneficially affect the whole body. This is because the 'Number One Riding Kit', i.e your ass, is where it should be and can stay there without effort.

Hope this makes sense!

[Heather]

Della,

That is exactly what I have found is the only way to help the over large lordosis!! Tucking the pelvis under just doesnt work- it blocks the lower back's ability to flex and absorb the movement, and the seatbones have a way of shuffling so that they point backwards again, bum stuck out behind!

Allowing a slight lowering of the ribcage does make the rider feel as though slouched, but I dont find they actually look that way, I had a couple in Holland who were exactly like this. So, I agree with Della, absolutely Antonia.

Heather

[acb.antonia]

I always expected that at some point someone would adjust my body to the optimum position and from then on I would be able to ride well!  I then met my instructor who did put me in that posture and then stated 'any idiot can hold that perfect position in halt but staying like that in all gaits takes years of practice'  and then I realised that the classical seat is hard work to acheive even when you know how.  It just takes good old fashioned practice!  And as Heather has also said 'you need to know how to absorb the movement'
I was surprised to find that my Albion saddle did in fact put me in an incorrect position, legs too far forward and not allowing me to sit close to the horses centre of balance- too far back in the seat.  I have been trying to counteract this for over a year presuming that I must be anatomically inept until I recently started riding a horse who had an anky saddle (hate to admit that that woman has contributed anything positive to the world of dressage )  but it allowed my legs to hang naturally and I was able to stop trying so hard to keep my legs back which led to me being able to concentrate on stopping my feet moving without tensing up to keep my legs back at the same time.  So with lots of hints and tips in mind I am now able to stop my feet bobbing up and down although I havn't mastered it completely.  Need a new saddle for my own horse now though! 
The lordosis of the spine isn't too bad with me and I think I am able to work round it ok but I was told by a pilates teacher that this condition can be improved dramatically with regular work.  Although I havn't got round to testing that idea yet!

[karen]

I have problems with my feet as well so was interesated in this topic.
Heather, I have been told to keep the heels down specifically to tighten the calf muscle so that a stronger leg aid can be given.  Is that wrong then?
Thanks!
Karen

[Heather]

Yes, it is Karen! If the calf muscle is tight all the time, you cannot close and release the muscle, and will clamp the leg on, restricting the ribcage. Yes, you need strong calf muscles in order to have control, but this is best achieved off the horse! Also, the leg aids should eventually be no more than a whisper. Yard manager Laura, was allowed a sit on Rei yesterday, and nearly got carted when she applied an aid to canter. I was howling with laughter, as Rei's face was 's**t, what on earth was that' as he rocketed off round the school! Within three transitions, Laura had learned to use almost no leg, just a miniscule shift forwards of the inside leg and the lightest of pressure, and he obediently popped up into canter. She was gobsmacked at just how little you have to do, on a trained horse having ridden youngsters for years!!

Heather