Well discussion on BD has taken quite an interesting turn,Olliebean has made some very good observations,as has Rosewood who also attended the clinic.Bear with me as its getting a bit long!;
Firstly I would like to thank very much the person that took the time to write up these notes for all of us who could not get there. Very much appreciated. I thought they gave a very clear guideline as to the weekend. Thankyou.
There is a lot to talk about but one of my first comments would be that even two eminent professionals disgree (comments about position of head in stretch down). This shows that no one has the exact right path and it is absolutely fine to disagree.
I do a lot of work in hand and the first lateral exercise I normally start with is the giravolte. The moving of the inside hind forward sideways under the body mass to improve flexibility and to connect the hind leg to the flexion on the same side.
I therefore found this comment from Gerd really interesting:
"Another ‘key’ discovered was the watching the French / Portuguese method of ‘correction work’ which was carried by using lateral work in walk. Gerd went and experimented with this, and has had great success!! Something about turning the hind wheel, i.e activating the hind leg, starts something in the front wheel – the stretch into the bridle!!"
With every rider it appeared he utilised the lateral work to combine the increased activation of the hindleg, connected this to the release to the lateral flexion which then permitted the stretch down.
This shows that the structured use of lateral work early on is realistic and also that the flexion is vitally important:
"There are two ways of flexing the poll – vertically and laterally. Lateral flexion (to the side) is VERY important to relax the muscle system."
He did not just send the horse around the school waiting for the stretch, he helped the horse achieve the want to let go by use of this therapeutic work.
Very interesting indeed.
Simon
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Blue Sky
09-04-2009 16:34
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Agreed. Very interesting.
Gerd has gone the Anya Beran, French classical way, maybe?
I am glad I was not there to see! I would have not really appreciated (being Swiss we rather know about the French desire for "lightness" before throughnesss!").
Even if I believe also that Gerd is a brilliant lecturer and knowledgeable man, who cares deeply and whom I support for his work about the functionning of the back, I am sadden by the fact that in his video (or lectures I heard), the rider is not really able to offer a proper "contact" to the young horse. Not wrong, not nasty, just not quite right.
The way Gerd is going is now gently going away from the old Austro-hungarian, Classical German school and SRS way, (which is the system I follow, thanks to my trainers), nevertheless, I also do believe that talks and discussions should carry on and that what he talks about is of value to feed an interesting debate?
What saddens me is that the people who ride powerful and big dressage horses at competition may be disappointed and I would agree with them in a way.
They are onto something good too, but go too far the other way.
I am not inclined to Rollkur, but neither would I be inclined to have a unsure, loose contact with no feel in the reins?
Surely the answer lies above both extremes? (Not in between, but above?) as some SRS riders did discover (as well as Neindorff).
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Iberiandream
09-04-2009 17:04
Edit post | Remove this post RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
I understand that Gerd has been spending some time working with Phillipe Karl,as well as Anja Beren.
I wonder if this is where the French influence comes from?
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Rosewood
09-04-2009 17:19
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Yes ID, Gerd has been working with PK and he is giving a presentation with him in Northern Germany in November. My ticket is already long booked!
Because none of the posters so far was actaully there (I was), I feel there is some speculation going on as to what it was GH was doing.
He had the horses' necks telescoping at all times (apart from the 'moments' when he dealt with their resistanes). The
He kept re-iterating that the first word of forward, down and out was FORWARD; that's where he wanted the neck. FORWARD down and out or FORWARD, up and out. The contact he established was definitely not an "unsure, loose contact with no feel in the reins". He showed the horse what a true contact - taking the horse to the bit, rather than the bit to the horse - should feel like.
I'll grant it was a bit of a culture shock for those participants
and spectators so used to riders with their arms out in front of them, trying to 'fiddle the head down' with their hands!.
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Blue Sky
09-04-2009 17:42
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Yes Iberiandream, it must have been from those people I believe, as well as some well-known French cavalry men too. (Saumur modern/last 20 years).
Gerd is rather young and very keen. But, did he saw Warendorf (German old classical school) at its best?
Or was he ever allowed (real/long) time, to understand the SRS school? He may only have been seeing "rollkur or stiff competition type on a contact training" to compare it with the French?
Just guessing here.
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Abs
09-04-2009 18:10
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
"It is very useful for others to watch and be allowed to assess different combinations including what is not so good,but,of course,always hard to be on the recieving end of such criticisms."
I think it's fine if you do these public critiques in front of a large audience as an adult.
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Iberiandream
09-04-2009 18:28
Edit post | Remove this post RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Thanks for that Rosewood,certainly an important principle to have in mind at all times.
I too wonder if there is a certain element of that BS,not just with this but in most reference to 'German training'-many people seem to think it is about heavy,hard contact etc,which was never what I was taught atall.
Abs,at the end of the day all the riders at this clinic were there as guinea pigs-if they had their eyes and minds open then I hope they gained much to take away from it,but the whole point of them being there was to be observed by the audience so that everybody could learn from them-this includes what was not good as well as what was good.
It was down to the childs parents to decide whether she participated or not-and I have heard/read *NO* criticisms about the rider herself-quite the opposite in fact,the concensus seems to be that she is a light and sensitive rider who loves her pony and also has the guts to go up in front of a huge audience in order to progress-I feel that she has been viewed with much respect and I only wish that I had been in her place at such a young age!
If you have an issue with her having been there perhaps that would be best taken up with her parents rather than those who wish to discuss and learn from the clinic?
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Blue Sky
09-04-2009 18:59
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
"He kept re-iterating that the first word of forward, down and out was FORWARD; that's where he wanted the neck. FORWARD down and out or FORWARD, up and out"
This is very good indeed.
Forward out in front first, then down onto the bit. You are right to say that we were not there Rosewood. Quite correct. But I have seen Gerd ride and discuss and it is very good indeed.
Discussing is not "destroying" the good bits.. it only discuss the facts and how we all see things differently. People of the quality of Gerd may be the first to accept to dialogue and exchange views about finer points without feeling threatened in any way.
But you are correct to say that there was much to be experienced on the day. Thank you for your input on this.
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Spanish Lady
09-04-2009 20:21
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
I have read P.K.'s book and yet don't feel that I really know what he is about. Yes, I know and understand the theory, but somehow it doesn't feel quite right. Does anyone else feel like that?
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Iberiandream
09-04-2009 21:05
Edit post | Remove this post RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Ive watched his first two videos,and yes,felt much the same SL.
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SL, I undedstand where you're coming from re: PK and that's why I said it may have been a culture shock for some in the audience to actually witness his method for the first time, esp. if they hadn't read the book!
I had been exposed to this type of riding from another ex-Cadre Noir trainer. However, his English and my French were on about the same par (LOL), so I was never too sure about the finer points of what he was trying to get across. For me,PK fleshed it out in better English, and to see GH put the theory in practice, has given my whole understanding of the topic so much more depth.
ID, my training was predominantly German classical too, and it irks me when people use the term 'German' as a synonym for 'strong' riding.
The Germans also have a history of using flexions from the ground and the saddle, so the CN trainer's method was not a complete revelation to me. However, I am extemly grateful to PK and GH for making much more sense of the hows and whys :-)
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Iberiandream
09-04-2009 21:51
Edit post | Remove this post RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Rosewood,
Yes,I think with the German method the flexions are more a matter of course than something that is addressed on its own-certainly it is essential to have a yield in the poll and jaw but ime that has not been focussed on in the same manner as with the French school.
I did find it very disturbing when watching PKs vid though when he suggested that the head/neck can only be affected by the hands-this is something he was quite adamant about and yet is clearly nonsense.
Most of what goes on with the horses head/neck should only be achieved through response to the seat/leg in as much as the head/neck needs to be allowed to be a barometer for the activity of the Qs.
For me,the lateral and jaw flexion is a necessary but minor starting point that I would expect to achieve on the ground almost straight away.
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Spanish Lady
09-04-2009 22:18
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
I don't feel P.K. is for me.( Glad I am not on my own.) I have been to very good tainers in the past. Iberian, German and was due to go to the Cadre Noir.
But I just didn't feel their methods were for me either.
I think subconciously we take from various schools but I feel comfortable training and riding along S.R.S. lines. There are times when you have to adapt ideas to suit the situation you are faced with when dealing with clients horses.
With my own horses I just follow the principles I was first taught.
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Iberiandream
09-04-2009 22:31
Edit post | Remove this post RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Message for Sollomon from the writer of the report;
I hope I didnt come over as over critical of horse or rider - It certainly was not my intention. I have no doubt that pony is very sensitive, the good ones are! and there was no mistaking the riders ability - she did extremely well under pressure :-)
I do hope that all parties can work together to improve the current situation. Best of luck :-)
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Blue Sky
09-04-2009 22:35
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
I think the writer of he report should be rewarded and thanked again and very much so.
Iberiandream, please do tell her how grateful we all are for her writing and the time taken.
I am With you and SL relatively to P. Karl training methods.
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Iberiandream
09-04-2009 22:43
Edit post | Remove this post RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Thank you BS,
I have passed on most of the comments and she is delighted at the warm response
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Olliebean
09-04-2009 23:05
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
I know that PK is of the French School and to some they will not like his methods. This will be, in part, for lack of understanding the mechanics and secondly purely not the route they wish to travel along. To agree with this is to agree that there are different Romes; something I have advocated for a long time.
However from what the report shows I see lateral flexions of the throatlash combined with the mobilisation of the inner hindleg. Is this really French school to be shunned by sum? Simple answer, no.
Kottas, totally SRS obviously, uses the giravolte in hand as a preparatory exercise for the work leading to the piaffe. The SRS use lateral flexion in halt to induce the relaxation of the jaw with the nuchal ligament flip. The inside lateral flexion is a key component of the alignment of the horse with the relevant relaxation through the topline and linking of inner hindleg to the rein aid.
If this was work according to the PK school of Legerete then we would have heard much more of jaw flexions in halt - lightness before movement. We would have heard more about the need to achieve a response to the hand before we ask for forward motion.
Yet the people that were at the clinic have reported that the primary comment from Gerd was for forwards - forwards into the stretch, forwards into the contact etc. This is balance through movement which is purely SRS methodology; NOT French.
Gerd H. is a very studious man who has gone through both the vets side and the training side and has come through with his conclusions. He is an educated man to say the least. Those that have put forwards Gerd as the real deal must also then take on board his comments about the relaxation of the whole horse, the requirements to achieve this and what is involved. This is, of course, unless they can provide proof to the contrary?
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Iberiandream
10-04-2009 07:44
Edit post | Remove this post RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Great explanation Olliebean-thats what I was trying to say although considerably less eloquently!-Thank you.
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Rosewood
10-04-2009 08:17
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Simon, you're right. Watching GH I didn't get the impression that I was watching the oft-cited French school of Balance before Movement or the German school of Movement before Balance. It was a combination of the two which brought about a balanced horse - it was, imo, just 'good riding'.
GH had to slow most of the horses down to a point where they were listening to his seat; "Getting the horse to wait for you".
He didn't wait for the horse to balance itself; he helped it to find balance.
Some other quotes that I noted:
"In the giravolta you want to feel the inside hind in the outside rein".
"Take the reins without taking the poll."
"If you try to control the poll by pulling (low hands), the horse will react by pulling".
"Too much inside rein causes rhythm irregularities in the inside hind."
I think some may think that GH is now into 'hand' riding as he talks about controlling the neck, mobilising the jaw, etc but from what I saw, GH was just as concerned about getting the hind legs under the horse.
"If a horse is tight in the right side of the poll, the problem is in the left hind."
"In the rein back focus on the hind legs."
"The more you pull in front, the more back stiffens and the hind legs trail."
"The nose has to be in front of the vertical. If you want a supple back, get the hind quarters under the horse!"
And this one to finish:
"Take the contact - not to take the neck but - to communnicate with the hind legs"!!
Doesn't sound like a man who's sold out on his German training to me, just one who's prepared to accept that others may also have valid ideas that will be for the ultimate good of the horse.
I like to bear the Cadre Noir's motto in mind when training:
"Worship of tradition does not exclude a love of progress".
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Olliebean
10-04-2009 08:49
RE: Heuschmann clinic write up
Quote
He didn't wait for the horse to balance itself; he helped it to find balance.
This, in my opinion, is a realy important comment however it comes with a double edged sword. It also, I believe, provides the grey area that confuses some people between whether things are the SRS or French school of thought.
A good trainer will help the horse find equestrian balance. There is no absolute definition between one school and the next. Lets face it both the SRS and French schools have grown their work from the same source - de la Gueriniere. PK has also added the Baucher influence (as a side note it is interesting to see that Gerd has a Baucher quote on his website).
However we can and do see trends of difference. It really does show though who thoroughly understands the system they claim to follow. The SRS use flexions in halt to soften the jaw and poll. They have for centuries. The SRS use lateral work to assist in helping the horse find his equestrian balance. So where is the difference between this and the French / Iberian schools? This is the grey area.
However a more indepth look will show us that the flexion in halt of the SRS style is utilised to obtain the confidence of the horse to telescope the neck to hand and as such allows the correct forward riding to be beneficial. The French school use the flexions in halt to "make the mouth" and "alter the horses frame". A very different concept.
The use of the lateral pattern by the SRS gives the release of the hindleg such that the forward motion is in a controllable manner that can be utilised to allow forward down and out without the horse thrusting forwards with stiff hindlegs pushing himself onto the forehand. The French / Iberian manner is to use the lateral step to aim for lightness / collection. Again, quite a difference.
I was not there so I have to be guided by what people say and thanks Rosewood for your comments. I am still of the opinion that Gerd is following far more the German method - helping the horse to find equestrian balance by relevant and structured gymnastic work which he is always looking to allow into the forward down and out gymnastic stretch.
Quote
"Too much inside rein causes rhythm irregularities in the inside hind."
This one stood out for me. The amount of riders I see asking for the bend through a corner and only serving to shut the inside hind leg down. A corner is an excellent exercise for enagaging the inside hind but the inside rein must allow this. Set the positioning up before the corner or movement and ride the hindleg through the movement.
Thanks for your comments Rosewood; really interesting.
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