Canter Aids...failing Miserably

[Larri DB]

Any help will be gratefully received on this one.

My young Luso is coming to the end of six weeks intensive training and this week I'm having lessons on her to harmonise our efforts.

I'm having a real problem with her canter, particularly asking her to jump off from my leg. I know she knows how to do it becuase I've been watching my instructor giving the lightest aid and off she goes into a lovely uphill canter and I've been told exactly how to give the aid she's attuned to and where.....my problem - doing it  :(
I'm trying to cue her and mostly getting a headlong rush into a faster trot  -The times we have had lift off I don't think I'm doing anything different, and there are times in our trot work where she's offering me the lift..without me being conscious of asking
I'm trying to lengthen my inside leg and give a nudge up with my calf as instructed, but my leg comes too far forwards - in fact all of me comes too far forwards  Marcia has asked me to really be conscious of lengthening my leg AND lift my inside seatbone...am I getting confused - that feels like a physical impossibility.
Can anyone help - before I start ruining all the good work she's had :(  

[Fred]

Just a thought Larri, have you tried giving the aid for canter at walk{skip the troting}.Walk to collected canter is nice
Maybe worth trying to help suss things out, I would be thinking in my mind,beautifull collected canter when giving the canter aid,  might help
 

[chapsi]

I don´t know if this of any good to you, but I am having exactly the same problem too. It is very frustrating to see how Pégaso goes so nicely when our trainer rides him, in comparison to when I ride. My trainer says I give him all the right aids, he is just having me on.
I spend all the time getting him quieter when he gets into one of his fasts trots, sit tight (although I agree with Heather, it´s easier for me to ask for canter from raising trot)- I ought to say, at this stage he makes me bounce like a ball-, and strike for canter on a corner, using all aids (leg position, voice, dressage whip, you name it).
What you are saying also sounds physically not viable to me.  

[cptrayes]

I agree with Fred on walk to canter and forget the trotting. It's fun too.   Can definitely help with a rushing horse. Also, if the horse is nice and reactive generally, then I try "thinking" the canter and not actually deliberately moving my body. The "thinking" actually seems to make you give a really nice, subtle aid without realising it.

I suffer from the inside leg slipping forward in the canter transition too, and I cure it by thinking of asking for the transition with my outside leg behind the girth instead. It can help a lot with that wilful inside one and some horses prefer the aid that way.

Are you sure you are sat level? If you are trying to lengthen your inside leg and raise the hip as you have been told, then it is possible that you are actually tipping to the outside. I watched a clinic once where the woman could not get right canter. From up above in the seats, it was clear she was sat with her weight to the left and the horse just couldn't strike off right with her weight giving an aid in the opposite direction. Might be worth getting someone to stand behind you to check.

If all else fails, try asking for the transition over a pole on the floor. I don't know why this one works, but it does.

I'm not at all sure about the instruction to "lift" your inside hipbone. You want the horse to canter bent around your leg, which means that you need to have your weight very slightly more on the inside seat bone, since horses move to where you move your weight. I think you need to think of moving your inside hip forward (and possibly a little upward), but definitely not to lift it without moving it forward. (Heather might correct me on that one.) For me, the feeling is almost that you put your hips into the diagonal alignment, with the inside hip bone going forward with the leading leg, that you will sit in when the horse is cantering, and almost "invite " the horse to join you in the canter. It's definitely easier to learn to do it from walk than trot.

I'm sure you'll get there soon and be going round with a huge smile on your face all day!

Caroline.

 

[sandpiper]

I have also been completely confused by the aids to canter, told to me in totally contradictory ways!  No wonder my horse often gets muddled.  

When I was younger and used to attend riding schools it was 'boot the horse behind the girth with your outside leg' and you would always see the kids asking for canter with their outside legs so far back and high they would be practically kicking the horses' croup!

I had been told to 'advance the inside hipbone', which I couldn't do easily without putting more weight on it (which may not have been correct, but was not explained to me).

Another instructor told me to weight my outside hipbone, which completely threw me!  I got so tied up trying to work out the technicals of it all, my poor horse went more on the wrong leg than when I wasn't thinking about anything, just feeling!

And I still don't know FOR SURE what the 'proper' aids for canter are, so I can understand them!!  Some instructors have told me to ask for slight bend to the inside when asking for canter.  Others have said that in order to strike off correctly, you mustn't block the horse's inside shoulder, and I have been told to tip the horse's nose to the outside!

Do I ask with outside leg, inside leg, both equally, outside or inside hipbone????

There must be a simplistic way of explaining it that is unambiguous and that I can understand completely, after nearly 40 years of riding!!!  Heather or anyone??

[cptrayes]

Hi Sandpiper - I realised from your response that my previous comments might be misunderstood. I correct a slipping forward inside leg on a canter transition by thinking of asking with the outside leg, not actually asking with the outside leg. And trying to think out the answer to your question, I realised that my aid to canter barely comes from my legs at all, it's almost all from my seat above my knees. I put myself in canter, and the horse follows. I wish I could tell you what muscles to move to do it, but I don't know myself, I just do it. It works even on babies, provided they know how to canter (which I teach on straight lines out on a hack, or like Heather with Beato wait until it is offered one day). If your horse is reasonably trained and balanced, and you are balanced with good muscle tone, it should work. With horses that are learning, there is a place for bending them outwards (to free the inside shoulder to lift - works to correct horses that consistently strike on the wrong leg) and bending them inwards (to get the bend onto a circle and stop them belting off!), but it depends what problem they are having that you are trying to sort and I wouldn't do it routinely. Does this help at all? Sorry if not.

Caroline.  

[sandpiper]

Hi Caroline, it does kind of help, thanks!  I think I understand in theory but in practise ... well, we shall see!  I know what you mean about using the seat, not the legs, but when I ask for canter, I am aware of putting weight into my inside hipbone and perhaps shouldn't be.

Oh well, when it finally stops raining I will have another practise session!

By the way sorry Larri DB for hijacking your thread!  

[cptrayes]

Hello again Sandpiper! I would say that canter is a naturally "bent" pace, in that it has a leading leg as opposed to working on equal diagonals like trot. If you are doing a bend in any pace, then you do load the inside seat bone to get the bend with a weight aid. So I think that in canter you also load the inside seat bone in the same way, not a lot, just a little, but make sure you don't collapse inwards at the waist or pull the head inwards with the rein! I can walk/canter much more easily to the left than the right, and if I compare the feel of the two, then to the left I have my weight more positively on the left. To the right I can feel that my weight is slightly more to the left than it would be (to the right) on the other rein, and it makes a huge difference to the quality of the transition. So I think this "weight to the inside" is quite subtle but quite important, but the hip definitely has to go forward too. Good luck!

C.

[sandpiper]

It's funny but talking about it on here makes me realise quite a bit of where I go wrong - I am sure I collapse somewhat to the inside as I am always looking to make sure my horse has struck off on the correct lead (no I can't ride by feel very well!) - so my poor horse probably has to cope with the whole of my body including head leaning over his inside!!  

I am going to make a concerted effort to sit up straight and NOT look down next time, will let you know how I get on!!

[Anna]

Hi all,

I'm having problems at the moment trying to get Merlin into left canter (he'll pop into a lovely counter canter for a few strides though! Grateful for small mercies, and all that...).   Now we're finally getting some half decent right canters, it is as if he's learned that right canter is much easier, regardless on which rein we're on!

I have been taught to advance my inside seatbone (if riding true canter) which, at least for me, can feel a little like lifting it, whilst lenghtening and at the same time lightening my inside leg.  Sounds contradictory, but if I lighten my leg I actually feel like it lengthens at the same time.  I suppose it all depends on where one's starting point is.  Mine was clamping my inside leg on to the poor horse looking down to the inside and tipping forward, thereby blocking him!  

I too find that it really helps to think "canter", thinking about the three time rythm in my head and "raising my energy".   Also - LOOKING TO THE OUTSIDE whilst asking for canter really helps me, as it seems to very subtly help with advancing the inside seatbone, whilst at the same time keeping upright.  We do seem to get a left canter more often when I do remember to look to the outside.    But mostly it's too much to think about at the same time for me.  I'm lucky that I get canter at all, Merlin is such a generous soul!
 

[Larri DB]

Well I've got Safi to myself now - home from her training. Gave her a schooling session last night - first solo  
Decided to go back to basics and ask with voice and leg on...right lead, spot on every time - lovely light up canter.  
Left lead...unmitigated disaster :(  went into counter canter everytime - even on a 20 m circle - felt like I was on a camel, not a Luso, I left it for a while and did some lateral work to establish a better softer bend, and tried again...hurrah we got the correct lead, but she was off at 90 mph with her head in the air, I half halted and (for once) managed to keep my weight well back to lighten her forehand..nope, eventually fell into a fast trot with me bouncing all over the place  - what on earth do I do to get this right Waaaahhh :unsure:  

[cptrayes]

To both the people who can get canter one way and not the other! -

- can anyone else get canter on the horse on the correct lead without a fight?
- can the horse canter on the lunge or loose on the correct lead?

If the answer to either of these is yes, then sorry, I think it's you!  :unsure: The only thing I've ever seen that causes it is the rider sitting with too much weight on the outside. All the other aids can be totally correct, but if your weight is slightly off to the outside, then the horse will strike in counter canter or refuse to canter at all. It's a very difficult thing for your instructor to see  (you really need to be above and behind) so just because they haven't told you about it doesn't mean you're not doing it). Hope this helps.

C.

[Larri DB]

Caroline - I know it's me - that was the whole point of my original post    
I'm much weaker through my left side after an accident and I'm desperately trying to work that side more effectively
Trainer did have problems with her sometimes as well though and she does pick up wrong lead on the lunge sometimes. I guess she thinks she being clever - such an ambidextrous little horse!

I'm going to leave it for a while, and work in hand  / lunge/ pole work to give her a break - the last thing I want is to have a battle every time we ride :(  I'll work on some suppling exercises for me too to try and loosen up.
I think If I can get her spot on with my voice aids and then try to wean her on to my slightly lop sided leg aids we'll get there in the end

Thanks for input everyone    

[Mandeigh]

Larrie DB.....what kind of exercises are you doing/able to do to build up your left side?

[cptrayes]

Sorry Larri, didn't mean to be rude. I think the vast majority of people are far too hard on themselves, and classical riders in particular will always blame themselves and not the horse, and sometimes it IS the horse. If she canters on the wrong lead on the lunge it's certainly not all you, in spite of your problem weakness. You sound like you're doing just the right thing, avoiding an unhappy battle at this stage. Good luck. I hope to see you post an "I've got it!" message soon.

Caroline