High Head Carriage

[Marengo]

Hi there,

I am back in the saddle and just about starting to attempt to school my 6yo horse under saddle. She's done virtually no schooling under saddle before - she has very little experience (less than 70 hours under saddle total) and most of our "work" has been to go on hacks.

Crystal naturally has a high head carriage - even out in the field she bats around with her head poked in the air. She's Lipizzaner x Anglo Arab but very typey for the Arab.

Anyway, I'm looking for some suggestions on how to start encouraging her to work softly through her back and soften her jaw, lower her poll etc. At the moment, we ride in a basic rope hackamore and she's never really been bitted. I do own a Myler comfort snaffle but haven't really tried to ride her in it. I don't want to fall into the trap of thinking "the answer is a bit" however, we went for a ride yesterday and her head was in the air as she became excited and with the rope hackamore, I felt I was missing something to help her relax, soften and connect. I do feel as though there should be more I can do with my seat or the other aids.

Aaagh, I literally don't know where to start!   :lol:

Any suggestions? They'd me most gratefully received.    

[shoveltrash]

Marengo i'm sure you will get more 'qualified' advice than mine......however i will chime in just a tad.
i am in the process of training/backing a very high-headed young horse as well (Friesian).  what has worked astoundingly well so far for us is work on the lunge, bitted, with fairly loose side reins.  very quickly my youngster began to understand that he was to 'stretch down' into the contact....i rewarded very very heavily at the LEAST bit of this, in the beginning.  now he is stretching down, rounding up, and trotting happily like this, even without side reins on.  according to my trainer, this will strengthen the correct muscles and will carry over to under saddle work.  i plan on rewarding lavishly under saddle for rounding down/softening at the poll as well!  (he really does respond to it well)
from what i've read about baroque breeds, getting them to soften & stretch down in the beginning is of utmost importance.
i'll be very interested in hearing other suggestions!
Trish
 

[Marengo]

Hi Trish,

Thanks for this. Can I ask some specifics please? How often are you working him on the ground and for how long? Also, am I right to assume you're using a snaffle with him for this?

I have also heard that the softening and stretching is of utmost importance with these baroque breeds too FWIW.

Cheers!  

[black_dragon_9]

She's Lipizzaner x Anglo Arab but very typey for the Arab.
 

Ohhhhh, that sounds an interesting cross.
Do you have any piccies? Pretty please?

[Marengo]

I have photos but I have, as yet, been totally unable to post any of them on here. They're not the right size or format and, for some reason, I'm no longer able to post them on MSN Groups.   <_<  

[shoveltrash]

"bit:"  a single jointed lightweight hollow eggbutt snaffle.  i tried alot of different bits, but found this to be the least bothersome for my boy.

"how long:"  at first, i worked lungeing until Iverzon showed the slightest tendency to stretch down.  i then praised praised praised "GOOD BOY!" and quit.  the next time he went to it a bit quicker, i praised again & quit.  quitting as a reward works VERY well for my colt! :lol:  so now, we go longer & longer with him stretching down into the contact, now that he *knows* what it is that i want/what gets rewarded.  clicker training would work well with this method as well, but i don't use it (Iverzon is very in-tune to my verbal praising).
in other words, our sessions are very short.  it's not necessarily for the 'physical' conditioning yet, but to get the IDEA in his head, and get him used to rounding down.  theoretically, when i ride i will reward the same thing, the same way ("good boy," then QUIT).  riding only in the school to start.

"how often:"  i don't work more than a couple times a week doing this, but i think it could vary according to the horse.....Iverzon gets bored easily, and i don't want to 'sour' the experience for him.  we also do in-hand lateral type work, rewarding the same way, for the same type of behavior (relaxing/softening/giving to pressure to move sideways).

since your mare is already under saddle, you could do both the lunge work and do it under saddle!  ride trotting around in the school, softly with an easy following contact.  if you even BEGIN to feel the slightest bit of a 'stretch down,' reward her & get off!

that's about all i have to offer.....it worked when i retrained my other horse, who was a rescue & had some hang-ups :blush: .  it seems to be working well with Iverzon too!  
i do hope someone else will offer some other advice, as i am interested in OTHER ways as well!!

Trish
ps - i too would LOVE to see a pic of your horse!  what an interesting cross.
 

[pintopiaffe]

I had a LippxArab for a few months in my care... She was for sale.  I'll always regret I wasn't in a position to buy her at the time...
 
At any rate... I do the same, I prepare the back for riding with lunge work.  I add one more thing to what Trish says, and that's the physical cues and the verbal cue.

For me, the physical cue is to open up my arms, and kind of 'draw the head down' with the lunge arm, and open the whip back a bit.  I think I probably tend to bend at the waist too, now that I'm thinking of it--kind of a very large curtain-call bow  B)  At first, I might do that when the HORSE offers to stretch, but very quickly it's associated with the stretching and the horse does it when I cue.  Tons of praise as Trish said.

When I got my big bay NSH (1/2 ASB, 1/2 Arab) mare as a 2yo, (she's 18 now!!!) they had taught her a verbal cue--this is SOOOOOO useful!  When at a show, and all is chaos and they want to motorbike around the end of the lunge... the cue can help them focus and stretch.  I've always used the words they used, which, typing them now don't seem to make any sense, but they work and don't *sound* like any other cue I use... It's "go fine."  I've no idea why they used it, but she knew it, taught me, and I've taught every horse since then to 'go fine.'  :P  (I also teach them "Venga" to come to me... very useful when it's time to step into a strange trailer or barn or such)  At any rate, it doesn't matter what you use as a cue... my 'come down' cue, (as in relax, quiet yourself, down transition etc.) is a two-tone whistle.  That would work.  ANYTHING as long as it's consistent.  But let me tell you, it's INCREDIBLY useful when they are tense, and does translate to under saddle.  For a horse who just doesn't get the stretch down, you can start at the halt and have them follow a carrot down, using the word(s).  Then while leading at the walk, etc.

I really like using one sliding rein on the inside and a donut side rein on the outside for horses really reluctant to stretch.  Less claustrophobic and seems to help them to learn to go F/D/O.  

With Mac, whose specialty when he was green was "giraffe on crack" mode,  getting the rhythm was (and still is) the key to getting relaxation, and only then does he begin to stretch.   U/S a pelham does help a bit, with a very loose, elastic curb... it's just enough to encourage him to relax his jaw.  He loves the mullen mouth too.  

Really getting the rhythm, "if he wants to go fast, we go slow, he wants to go slow, we go fast"; (Walter Zettl) for me is the key to getting the stretch and relaxation under saddle.  My teacher had me set my hands low, about just in front of the dees of the saddle--and that wide apart, and *think* sidereins at first.... Just steady and soft and THERE--unchanging.  If he pulled, he met equal resistance, if he was soft, he met equal softness.  This worked VERY quickly, and within 8 weeks or so we were moving into a more normal hand position.  It also leads to TERRIBLE habits if you don't have someone on the ground checking you.  
 

[Marengo]

You guys are awesome, thanks for all this.

I don't own a pair of side reins but I think a trip to the tack shop might be in order. I do understand where you're coming from, Trish, saying Iverzon gets bored. Crystal is the same so I think a couple of times a week max too, with more interesting ridden work in between.

PP, I do think something like Clicker training and "putting the behaviour on cue" is good for this kind of specific thing and Crystal is very quick to pick things up.

Ooo, I do feel like a traditionalist going back to lunging in side reins.... :lol:

BTW, there are some photos of Crystal's dad, Neapolitano Fantasia, on here

[franklin]

Hi,
I teach the horse the verbal command "down" first in hand. I stand on the near side of the horse, take the reins in each hand, flutter the inside 1 and squeeze with the outside one and at the same time apply light pressure to the poll via the rein contact and say down (you can always put his favourite treat on the floor if you have any difficulty!). Very quickly they understand, reward straight away with much praise. When you then lunge they answer the "down" command. As for riding the outside rein will ask the horse to bring his neck out  and down from the shoulders, (squeeze this as the outside knee begins to rise) and the inside rein with ask him to relax his jaw, and your legs should lightly be asking him to go forward towards the bit. He can do all this without a bit.
Hope this is of some use.
Jenny

[shoveltrash]

oh good advice!  i especially like PP's "curtain bow" thing - now that i think about it, i do a similar thing with MY body to initiate the relaxation/stretch.  body language is so important.
and my cue comes after the behavior - "goooood" said soft, long, & even toned.
one thing i would caution - getting too focused on the HEAD is a mistake.....because in addition to lowering the head to stretch the topline, the horse should be moving in a good rhythm, and should be 'straight' (i.e. bent on the circle correctly), with impulsion!  not shuffling around, crooked, with the head hanging down.
it all goes back to the fundamentals of the training scale: rhythm, relaxation, straightness, etc.
good luck Marengo!
Trish
ps - after seeing "dad," you are going to HAVE to post some pics of Crystal!
wow!!!
pps - JMHO that pelhams & curbs run the risk of 'head setting' in initial training.  that's why IMHO young horses are started in snaffles.
 

[pintopiaffe]

oh, yes.... agree completely on both the *starting* in a snaffle (albeit mullen mouth sometimes) and on the focus on the head.

When I lunge, my *intense* focus is right about at the stifle... lol!  I try to really get those hind-end joints articulating.

Back comes next, and head last.

*but*... having said that... obviously a 'stretch' has to include the head, and sometimes must be *started* there.  Not going to do a bit of good if there's no engine behind it... we've all seen the 'peanut rollers' and that's NOT helping the back to strengthen.  

I don't mind being just a touch deep during lunge work, but would *rather* have F/D/O for a youngster.  Some of the very hottest/tightest need a little deep to relax before they'll follow F/D/O

And this discussion, my friends, is entirely the difference in the schools.  The German school would have you achieve the balance through FORWARD first, then rhythm... the French/Portuguese school realizes that for some horses, balance and softness must come first, THEN only can you have the proper FORWARD.  I'm mangling it trying to type it in words... but there is SUCH a difference in the schools.  And there's a reason the French/Portuguese school differs, and suits, the Baroque built/moving horse.  

[AMouseForMe]

And this discussion, my friends, is entirely the difference in the schools.  The German school would have you achieve the balance through FORWARD first, then rhythm... the French/Portuguese school realizes that for some horses, balance and softness must come first, THEN only can you have the proper FORWARD.  I'm mangling it trying to type it in words... but there is SUCH a difference in the schools.  And there's a reason the French/Portuguese school differs, and suits, the Baroque built/moving horse.

I don't really agree with this. The first level of the German training scale is RHYTHM, and every qualified trainer I have ridden with (all of whom come from the Germanic or Austrian traditions, some who compete and some who do not) place correct rhythm above all else. Further more, the steps of the training scale are all interwoven, and you don't work on one alone to the exclusion of all the others. When working with a hotter, tense horse, EVERY trainer I've worked with has had me establish correct rhythm before asking for "more" of whatever gait we are working in. Both of the horses I ride are of extremely compact type, and VERY sensitive and hot. I work both in the same manner, of course with subtle differences for their own unique personalities and quirks. One is a Hanoverian, one is a PRE, and the PRE goes 1000 times better now than he did in the French school he was previously trained in, so I do not believe that different "schools" matter so much. I think there is a DEFINITE difference between how you approach a hot horse vs. a more phlegmatic horse. A phlegmatic horse needs an emphasis on "forward NOW" as they tend to be naturally relaxed to the point of laziness, while the hotter horse needs quiet work to encourage relaxation before asking for more power and scope. The days of the dull warmblood are nearly over, most of them are quite sensitive and even hot. The difference is that a warmblood, in the face of unsympathetic riding, will usually SHUT DOWN rather than become frantic, which earns them the reputation as being dull. Having ridden a lot of them, most of them were anything but. You have to know how to ride them, which means NO NAGGING and LIGHT AIDS. Riding like that is difficult, and a life-long pursuit. I believe in only two distinctions, "good riding" and "bad riding". Good riding realises that each horse is an individual, and doesn't require being locked into thinking that "we are training in a certain school, therefore we must do this". Some people focus too much on forward, and end up with a tense horse that runs and never truly carries (on the forehand). Some focus too much on collection, and end up with a horse that is high and tight in the neck/back and behind the bit without sufficient impulsion. Both are wrong. Just because a horse is X breed, doesn't mean it necessarily needs to be worked in X way. Listen to the individual.


For the original poster, one of the most helpful things for a horse who tends to be tight in the back is work on the double longe-lines. If you can, find someone who can teach you how to do this work. It is immensely helpful in teaching a horse to seek the bit down and out, and I use it with nearly all the horses I work with, both young and old. As the horse becomes more adept at the work you can do things such as changes of direction on the circle at the walk and trot, which are very helpful for developing suppleness. However, I would not recommend doing this without first having someone help you, as the work is a lot more difficult than it looks.  

[shoveltrash]

great post AMfM!  (abbreviated for ease....sorry :lol: )

i too believe that each horse should be treated as an INDIVIDUAL.
and the 'training scale,' to ME, has never been "one school vs. another."
in fact, until a year or so ago, i was oblivious to the distinctions between different 'schools!'

rhythm
relaxation/looseness
straightness
impulsion
collection

i may have left something out, as i'm in a hurry & need to get OFF the computer!
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

anyway, i think that each horse should be managed/trained by assessing their specific needs.

i hate the thought of being stuck in a particular "school" of thought.  but PP is right, many many MANY people are very rigid in their training (per one "school" or another), and don't believe in approaching training per the individual horse!
Trish
 

[Marengo]

Thanks for all the advice up there and for the insight into the complex discussions on the French and German schools.  

I may also do some long lining - we started doing some a little while ago and it does tend to help Crystal concentrate more when doing things like polework. On the lunge, for some reason, she tends to start playing games, hooleying over the poles as though they're jumps.  :lol: However, first and foremost, it's ME that needs to become more structured and focused and actually start doing this! All too easy to get sucked into the 1000 other things that always seem to need doing.  

As for the photos, I am planning on getting Photoshop soon so I'll be able to edit my photos so that they will go on here.

 

[franklin]

Hi,
Yes my suggestions are used in longreining as well to great effect, Yes the horse must be going forward but in balance, not  rushing around like a mad thing!.
Jenny