Rein back

[1 morejump]

Well here comes another question from me, Heather, Ash's question made me think of another problem I am having with Lance.  I am having a heck of a time getting him to back up under saddle.  In ground work I can get him to back up with no problem, but ridden, he just does not want to do it.  I have tried different body positions, leg positions, anything I can think of and he totally ignores it.  To get him to rein back you have to exert a lot of pressure on his mouth, and even then he won't back up more than one step and it is never straight. I don't want to hurt his mouth so we have pretty much stopped working on it until I can come up with solution. Actually I have a hard time getting him to stop for more than 10 seconds under saddle, he is all go go go. He has done this no matter what bit or saddle I use and I know his teeth are fine they were done a few months ago. 

So that's the problem, I'm not really sure what the question is .  Probably just how do you effectively stop and rein back? Stopping him is a nightmare, he is getting a little better but I have no good sharp stopping power with him.  I can squeeze my thighs off, and tense up my body and it still takes him ages to stop. He listens to voice commands better than body cues but he still loads the forehand and reluctantly powers down.  Once we do stop he only stays still for a few seconds, if I want to stay still longer I really have to fight him. I'm not really sure what is going on.

[WendyP]

When I taught Pi to back up I used the word "back" on the ground and then when I tried it under saddle I used the word "back" with the aids so he learnt the aids went with the movement associated with the word "back".  I then removed the spoken cue.
No idea if that is the way to teach it but it worked for us and Pi has always backed up for very little rein pressure in a round shape with his head down.  I was always taught though that the leg aid should increase not the hand aid.

My previous trainer used to stand in front of the horse and cue the horse back with her hand in the way she used it to back a horse in the stable, while the rider applied the aids.

Always start teaching reinback next to a fence so that can help them stay straight and try to sit straight to help them.

So does your horse understand that you mean go back?

I think you need to get your horse to learn to halt first and stay still until cued to do something else.  Trying to get a reinback from a fidgeting horse is probably not going to work.
Perhaps start a separate thread about halting?

[1 morejump]

I was always taught though that the leg aid should increase not the hand aid.

What leg aid are you using? Leg for Lance means go.  I have tried stopping him and then gently vibrating the reins to get him to drop his head and then back up but that isn't working. 

I do use the verbal cue "back" when we are doing this and he will listen on the ground but on his back he just does not want to do it.  He really does like to move and stopping has never been one of our strong points.  Maybe we do need to go back to that.

So lets add another question; how do you get a prompt response to halt?

[Heather]

Hmmmm, if you are having to 'squeeze' your thighs off' Mary you may well be trying too hard! This is the one time I would also tuck my butt under, if the horse is not responding to seat and upper thigh being closed. This invariably works- I found it out by chance, as a young horse, now owned by another of our members, Dougal, had been ridden by a lady with arthritis, who had gripped with her thighs to stay on, negating any response from him to the seat aid! By 'tucking my tail under' in a downward transition- no leaning back though- I found it reinforced the aid so that he gradually learnt by reducing the aid, to respond to the seat alone.

In rein back, you need someone on the ground to help you if he is being that resistant. Get them to tap him on the chest in rhythm as he picks up his feet, or even push him with the hand on the chest, but not with permanent pressure or he will push back into it. Use an intermittent pressure, press, then release as he takes even the smallest step back, you inclining your upper body slightly forwards, legs a little behind the girth and asking on the reins to keep the jaw soft. Of course if he is clicker trained, click reward at the slightest effort. This is where I cannot imagine doing without VT!!

Heather

[WendyP]

Legs as per Heather's description. Just a bigger squeeze if needed. I do lighten the seat and incline upper body slightly forwards and do little feels down the rein.

[1 morejump]

Heather, I'm trying to 'tuck my tail' while sitting here and I can't do it without leaning someway.  Either I have to lean back or arch my back.  Are you contracting your abdominal muscles to do this? That's the only way I can do it, I can't just scoot it under.

I guess I need to find a helper for rein back. Why are these things never easy?

[Heather]

If you are having to lean back or arch your back, Mary, you ain't tucking your tail under!! Just sit directly on your seatbones on a chair and tighten your buttock muscles so that you point your seatbones forward. It is a bit like Linda Parelli's 'sit on your back pockets' ( but not all of the time as she advocates!! ) but without rounding your back outwards, just should straighten the hollow in your lower back.

A good way to try it is to place a book on a table, a fairly heavy book, with the book off the edge of the table. Now face table and book, and push the book back on the table with your lower abdomen. You should feel the same feeling as you need to on the horse, when having to exaggerate the seat aid in this way.

Heather

[Belbe]

well, if u can't get any help and he backs on the ground then i'll suggest this: hop on the floor and stand beside his shoulder. then grabe the reins as if u where riding and try to ask him to back making a backwards movement yourself. if that don't work. grab both reins with your right hand (if u're standing on his left) with his right paralel to the wall, and ask him to back with a lil whip in front of his nose/chest/knees (whatever works best) at the same time that u say back and pull/give with the reins. Then i would try to do this only whip in front of chest and finally only with reins. then try riding again.

might and might not work. I've only tested it on one horse so...

[luckyrider]

1mj, just to add, that PK does not like to use legs for reinback either, as he likes to keep legs for forward movement.

Of course this is not gospel, I use my legs for reinback but if you are not doing so then you are in very good company.

I feel that the clicker will definitely get you where you want to be.  You need Lance to stop for longer periods without fidgeting, and CT is just the ticket for that.  You stop (when asked), I click, once established, you stop, I withhold the click for a brief second, then gradually withhold for longer, building up in increments until you have a decent halt.

You asked how to get a prompt response to halt, and of course, with CT you get quicker responses to every request, but especially halt ones, as the goodies are only delivered once the horse is standing still!

Verbal cues are great, but even better would be a sound you can make with your mouth that does not use the voice, as the voice can confuse -- different tones, different inflections, these things throw a horse.  The sound a lot of people use for reinback, where I am, is a "tut" sound, like the sound a disapproving aunty might make when a toddler plays up.