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Author Topic: The Training Of Two (now Three) Baroque Dressage Horses. Bella pics p20 Grace 19  (Read 23967 times)
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Bejay
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 12:18:51 PM »

I will try to borrow a video camera but you would be much better off watching the DVD. They are very reasonably priced (about £15 or $30 for 2 hours worth), and she sends them out incredibly quickly (mine arrived 6 days after I ordered them and that's to the UK).

There's loads on there about making yourself stronger and more effective by using bone rotations instead of muscle; especially brilliant when there's not much of you, or for anyone with a horse that knows it's own strength.
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Bejay
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 12:22:25 PM »

Motivating Jack to go forward.

I can now see that my strategy for training Jack to be light off my leg was doomed to failure from the start and, in fact, he threw it straight back at me, only his training of me was 100% effective.

I used the same tactics that had always held me in good stead in the past. I began with a very light aid and upped the anti (probably far too fast) until I got a result. I then immediately stopped the aid and gave a ‘good boy’ and a pat if they were lucky. The reason I had always been successful before was down to three factors, as I see it. For some horses the release of pressure and threat of increased pressure had been motivating enough. For some the verbal and tactile praise may have had some motivating effect, combined with the fact that they wanted to please, but all had in common an innate desire for movement – they would rather move and do something than stand and do nothing, so movement was self-reinforcing.

That last factor was missing in Jack. He would rather stand still and doze than move. Even leading him he goes everywhere as slowly as possible, let alone carrying me. If you left him tied up in the yard all day he would just go to sleep, at least until he got hungry. He likes standing still. He took my increased nagging as an exercise in tolerance – how much could he put up with before I annoyed him into lurching into movement with a big sigh - and the answer was an ever-increasing amount.

I made it worse because the moment he moved and I stopped nagging he would instantly slow down so, because it took less effort to keep him moving than it did to get him to shift in the first place, I was after him again, desperate to keep him going. If he ever did offer any energy I would seize the opportunity to do make him do some proper work, so the more he gave the more I wanted. I was greedy and unappreciative and there was nothing in it for him. He did to me what I was doing to him; made me work harder and harder for less and less result, only his training strategy was successful – I got tired and dispirited more and more quickly and gave up after getting less each time. He was a much better trainer than I was.

But that was all about to change. Now I had a clicker and I knew how to use it!

I got on him in the school and just sat there doing nothing. He stood, waiting for the nagging to begin. Nothing happened. His head came up a little as he wondered what was going on. What was I up to? Nothing, I just sat, completely neutral. His ears flicked in thought. I waited. After a while I felt a subtle shift as he altered his balance and lifted one heel. I clicked and treated. He couldn’t believe his luck! He had to do much more than that to get a treat working in hand. Maybe being ridden wasn’t so bad after all. Was it a fluke? He tried it again. 3 clicks later he was moving a leg before he had finished his treat. 10 clicks later he was taking a whole stride. It was time to add the cue.

The only problem I had was getting a gentle vibration of my calf in between giving him the treat and him moving again. This was fantastic! I began to withhold the click for a couple of strides, going back to a single stride as soon as his response to my aid slowed down. After a few days we were walking whole circuits of the school, energetically, from a barely perceptible a leg aid.

After about a week of this he offered to trot. I nearly fell off with shock. In 4 years he had never broken into a trot voluntarily, unless he was spooking at something. I jackpotted him (gave him extra treats) and worked on the transition. It was instant and energetic every time. This couldn’t be the same horse! I withheld the click longer and longer until he trotted a whole circuit, then got off and emptied my pockets, telling him he was wonderful!

The very next day he would keep trotting until he got a click with no attempt to slow down or stop beforehand. Two weeks later it occurred to me that it was a long time since I had asked for a downward transition (because he stops dead as soon as he hears the click, and I only wanted to reinforce forward movement). I asked. Nothing happened. Stopping had lost all its attraction because he only got treats for going. He had no motivation to stop before he got a click so he wasn’t listening. I was shell-shocked! This was the horse who did sliding stops at the slightest hint of a request to slow down. It was unbelievable. It was also definitely time to start clicking downward transitions and get the brakes re-lined before I had a runaway on my hands!

I had watched all the DVDs and read all the books so I knew clicker training was effective but I couldn’t believe how fast and how profound the change in his attitude had been. I understood why, but it still seemed magical.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 12:29:28 PM by Bejay » Logged
Taliessin
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 01:54:30 PM »

I am really loving these posts, Bejay, thank you so much for taking the time and trouble  nod nod
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Bejay
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2008, 11:42:43 PM »

Bella and the bit.

Bella loved having a bit in her mouth. I only had to hold her bridle up and she did the rest, she couldn’t get it in fast enough. She immediately drew her tongue up into the back of her mouth and started fiddling. She did (and still does) this occasionally without a bit in her mouth but she did it all the time with one. She never put her tongue over the bit but she never dropped it under it either. It made any fine control and subtle conversation impossible and gave me a dead, wooden feeling that I hated. She often tilted her head on one side as well, which made good balance impossible too.

This is how she looked all of the time (or worse) pre-clicker:




This is how she looks nearly all of the time now:




Nothing I had tried had made the slightest difference. It was her favourite pastime and she wasn’t going to give it up in a hurry. Strangely it also made her very safe to ride. She was so ‘busy’ all the time she barely noticed what was going on around her, and certainly didn’t have time to worry about it. I didn’t realise it then but her immense powers of single-minded concentration are now a huge advantage, now that she uses them to concentrate on earning clicks and treats.

I was by now reasonably sure that I could clicker train her out of it but I thought it would take a long time before she realised what I was actually clicking her for, because I knew that if I was her it would have taken me a long time to work it out. Luckily she is much smarter than me, and although building duration took some time, getting the behaviour and putting it on cue took no time at all.

Clicker training is all about ignoring what you don’t want and focusing on what you want, so that you get more of it, so what exactly did I want? I needed get her to drop her tongue under the bit and relax her jaw.

I put her bridle on in her stable, left the reins hanging loose over her withers, stood by her shoulder watching her mouth and waited. She fiddled about as usual. I waited. After a fairly short time it seemed to occur to her that this was odd. I never put her bridle on in the stable, and why was I just standing thee doing nothing, She looked at me and for a second her mouth was still. I clicked and treated. Just 5 clicks later she was standing with her mouth relaxed. I picked up the reins and took a very light contact and she immediately started fiddling again. I looked at her mouth and waited. About a minute later her mouth relaxed and I dropped the reins as though they were burning my fingers, clicked and treated. After another 5 clicks she was ready for the cue (you only put the behaviour on cue when you know it is going to happen). I picked up the reins and, as her jaw moved slightly I said ‘quiet’, her mouth relaxed, I dropped the reins, clicked and treated. We were away!

I took her into the school and began again. Standing still it was easy, but moving she sometimes didn’t listen to ‘quiet’ so I added a tactile cue as a secondary cue to use only if the spoken cue was ignored. I lifted the inside rein and vibrated the bit gently in the corner of her mouth, dropped it the instant she responded, clicked and treated.

The next day I tried it from the saddle. I was blown away by the difference it made. The feel I got down the reins went from dead to electric in the time it took to say ‘quiet’. She also threw in a TMJ release each time for good measure. All I had been looking for was a quiet mouth and I got so much more. I was addicted to the feel she gave me, and even though she got very subtle about trying to get away with a miniscule fiddle I could always tell, because the feel went dead. She has taught me the importance of a quiet mouth and a relaxed jaw and demonstrated the difference between the two repeatedly. I could never settle for anything less again and if I came across another horse with an overactive mouth I would always sort that out first, before I even considered working on anything else.

Giving her the treat obviously gets her tongue and jaw moving again and that tends to start her off fiddling again, but I don’t see that as a bad thing because we get to practice our cue each time. I no longer treat her very often just for responding to the cue, but she knows that if her mouth isn’t relaxed she won’t get treated for anything else either, so she keeps it quiet nearly all of the time between treats and she is every bit as busy concentrating on her work as she used to be concentrating on her hobby. She is fast becoming the dressage pony of my dreams, and less than 2 months ago I had never been able to do any productive ridden schooling with her. I don’t believe we could ever have got to where we are now, if we’d both lived to be 100, if it wasn’t for clicker training.

We are already getting moments like this to click and build on:








« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 01:39:20 AM by Bejay » Logged
Bejay
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2008, 12:16:18 AM »

Thank you very much Taliessin, but it really is no trouble. I am really enjoying writing all of this and it helps to get things clear in my own head. I can see why things have worked the way that they have far more clearly since I've started writing it down, so it's helping me enormously.
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Claire
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2008, 06:39:02 AM »

now that was very interesting bejay .... and i wish you could have had a camera on the process of getting bella's mouth right, it sounds as though it was quite amuzing watching her face as well!
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Bejay
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2008, 02:22:13 PM »

Thanks Claire.

On the subject of mouths I just bought a book on eBay 'The Bit and the Reins' by Gerhard Kapitzke. It only arrived this morning but it looks fascinating and the illustrations are absolutely beautiful - mostly Iberians and some of them are of Richard Hinrichs and his horses.

I've only flicked through it but already read enough to want to ditch Bella's bit guards. The trouble is the joint at the cheeks looks as though it might pinch. I think that I might have to invest in a full cheek KK Ultra Dynamic.

There is also a long section in the book on working the horse correctly in a cavesson, and on different cavessons and fitting them. It's definately going to be a 'cover to cover' book for me!

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Bejay
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2008, 03:23:02 PM »

Treat Delivery.

Alexandra Kurland puts a lot of emphasis on how the treat is delivered. I could see that giving it away from your body was a good idea, to discourage mugging, but I couldn’t really see why anything else would matter. I was giving the horse something that he wanted so why would he care how I gave it?

Then I remembered something. I used to do some work for someone who, when they paid me, handed the money over in an offhand and slightly begrudging fashion which offended me. I wanted the money but the way it was delivered reduced my pleasure in receiving it and how I felt about that person. Maybe horses would feel the same way.

I tried delivering the treat with the flourish Alexanda Kurland describes and demonstrates in the Tai Chi Rope Handling Exercises DVD and I could immediately see how it impressed them. They had always been polite about hand feeding anyway, but they took the treat in a very thoughtful, deliberate way that is hard to describe.

I tried it with an old horse here who has always been ‘gobby’ – the sort with no fine motor control so your whole hand disappears inside his mouth. For the first time ever he hesitated, and then he took the treat in a far more careful, respectful way.  I was a convert!

I have since read Alexandra Kurland compare it to the way a waiter delivers food to the table; with a flourish or just throwing it down in front of you.

I have played around with different aspects of this – how quickly or slowly I take my hand away afterwards, and fiddling about in my pocket, as if I am having trouble finding the treat, to get the horse’s attention back onto me if he has been distracted between hearing the click and receiving the treat. The latter is proving very useful with Jack when he is feeling on edge.

Who would have thought that such a seemingly trivial thing could have so many possibilities, and I suspect that I am still only on the tip of the iceberg.
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Bejay
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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2008, 12:36:19 PM »

More work on Anxiety.

All the head lowering work I have done with Jack has made me very sensitive to changes in his anxiety levels, and I can now spot worry building from a mile away. Even in windy conditions he very rarely panics instantly; it’s more that slightly anxiety multiplies unless he can be effective in calming himself down, or I can find a way to get his attention back on me.

This heightened awareness is a double-edged sword. He rarely takes me by surprise anymore (I used to think a shy and spin came from nowhere. Now I know that it is coming if he or I can’t diffuse it) but that presents me with challenges to my own self-control and judgement.

The danger is that I step in too soon and act, when if I had just waited he might have been able to sort himself out. If I try to prevent a major retreat from happening too early then I may make it happen, through over-reacting and disturbing his attempts to calm himself. If I leave it too late then I end up having to be ‘agricultural’ to regain control that I might not have lost if I had acted sooner.

I am finding it so, so difficult to get it right. I realise that in the past, at times he has succeeded in sorting himself out because I had no idea that trouble was brewing anyway. On the other hand he now often will listen to me when he wouldn’t have before clicker training. If I could get the balance exactly right we would be laughing.

What I need to get much better at is being able to observe without anticipating, so the my adrenalin levels don’t rise along with his, and I am finding that quite difficult to do, especially when I am riding him.

What I need him to do is to learn to give to pressure even when he is frightened. Thanks to the head lowering and mat work he is now excellent at keeping himself calm at liberty. I can follow him into the spooky end of the school and he will go straight to his mat and stay calm, even in a howling gale with plastic flapping on the bales stored in the school, as long as I put no pressure on him. This is a wonderful start but it’s not enough to make him a 'safe and reliable in all circumstances' riding horse.

I know that my only hope of him being able to do this is if I can keep my own adrenaline out of the equation. I know that tension in me makes his anxiety increase rapidly. The good aspect of this is perhaps the reverse will also be true. I used to think that he ignored me when he was scared. I now know that he doesn’t; my tension increases his, so maybe my lack of tension can reduce his too – maybe, even when he is frightened he is staying much more tuned in to me than I thought.

I am not a nervous rider but I am a careful one, so this is going to be a challenge to my ability to control my own thoughts as much as anything.

We are already making good progress in hand, and I can usually bring him back to me (physically and mentally) now. I have introduced a new verbal cue ‘soft’, which seems to make us both ‘soften’ just by the sound of the word, and I have learned to avoid using words which sound too harsh or strong (I used to use ‘down’ for head lowering but it’s far too strong sounding a word for when he is nervous).

If all this sounds like weak leadership I can only say that I have tried the reverse and it freaks him out completely. It just makes him want to get away from the situation and from me.

My OH says that Jack should do as I tell him just because I told him to, and I actually agree with this in principle, but, my reply is that first I have to make Jack WANT to do as I tell him just because I told him to!

Jack in 'tuned in' mode:


« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 01:27:48 PM by Bejay » Logged
Jane C
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2008, 12:30:54 PM »

HI Bejay,

I have got to read all the way through yet, but I don't want to forget what I wanted to ask you so can you explain this a bit more

"The power is in the rotation of the wrists as you slide your hands apart."  when you were talking about the tai chi rope wall?
I am not sure how you rotate your wrists as your hands slide apart - the rest of the description was great  Cheesy

I have just ordered three flip three and micro shaping DVD's from AK, but will have to wait a bit for the tai chi one as I am getting a companion pony next week and have to pay for the transport up from Wales so my bank balance is looking very sick just now Shocked so I would be really grateful.

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Jane C
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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2008, 01:03:41 PM »

Have now read through the rest - this is very inspiring Bejay and I am hugely impressed that you have managed so much so quickly.

I am especially finding it amazingly helpful to see how you are applying some of the ideas as I am totally useless at being imaginative with it once I have read something - I get far too focused, direct and literal when trying to achieve something - I just wish I could be aware of that whilst I am doing it  laugh

 
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Bejay
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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2008, 01:19:39 PM »

Thank you so much Jane C. I am very lucky in that I have what most people don't have, and that's plenty of time these days to play about and experiment, and to do what Alexandra Kurland is always emphasising, which is stick with an exercise long enough to find ALL the things it has to offer, and she means HOURS, although they can be split up over a period of time.

I am hoping that a certain person who has actually done clinics with AK will answer your question on wrist rotations. If not I will have a go, but she is far more experienced and better qualified to do so than me.
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hilary
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2008, 01:58:08 PM »

Hi helen, love your posts. Have just had Alex up here for a clinic , and had a great time.
2 things that might help with the scary aspect.
Have you done head lowering using the rope )Asopposed to liberty? This is a really good one to build so you can use it out anywhere  -and there could be quite a lot of pressure involved. Slide up the rope, lift the chock upwards, and release as soon as they drop. If they are scared, and put their head up further, you go up with them maintaining/equalling the pressure they put on the rope , then s soon as they drop release ( and C/T of course!). Then try and go to a semiscary place to practise this to build it up.

The other thing that would help is disengaging the HQ. We set this up by walking towards and around a cone, slide up the rope, use a taichi wall to keep shoulder over and move hips over, then back up from the same side you are on, swop sides while doing food delivery , and back up from the other side. As well as helping with turns, practising disengaging the HQ (in a avery friendly clicker manner) will also give you another safety net when life gets scary.
This little bit shows Isabella practising this 


Love your ponies by the way   -  I need those more hours!

Re wrist rotations  -  will try and think how to write an answer down!it is all to do with bone rotations that com from the tai chi world (James Shaw does tai chi for equestrians ) It gives you strength from your core, but gives a better "feel" to the horse than using external strength. One example of a bone rotation is this - stand next to someone and have your arm straight out AT 90 degrees just touching their shoulder ,now stretch your am out and you can normally get about an extra inch in length (so you are touching the person more firmly). That extra length comes from you rotating your humerus slightly in its socket. WIll think over the next few days re wrist rotation.I find it really hard to describe this stuff, and use the right language.



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Bejay
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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2008, 10:41:37 PM »

Thank you SO much for that Hilary. The link is really helpful and Isabella looks so relaxed and focused, especially for a 3yo.

I made a start on the exercise you are working on in the link this afternoon but it was very windy here. Jack was coping really well until my OH drove the tractor into the school to get a flappy plastic monster (bale of haylage) and then managed to drop it right next to us. He said he didn't drop it, it just fell off, but, either way, Jack needed the comfort of a more familiar exercise after that! I will return to it tomorrow.
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hilary
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2008, 07:14:11 AM »

Hehe!! Sounds like your OH is good at setting up a training scenario!!


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