Positive v Negative reinforcement .... our experiences

[TashaKat]

Having read with interest the different opinions on the 'bargy horse' thread got me thinking (sorry, you'll have to bear with me, it's something that I'm still learning and thinking more about).

I used to use predominantly negative reinforcement (release of pressure etc) and it made sense to me.  The horse moves away from the pressure which is a 'reward' for them (that's how it was always explained to me).  I'd seen clicker (done badly) and thought that it was a fad and stupid (sorry  ).  I've always preferred to save punishment for the very extreme circumstances when you need to get yourself out of danger.

Since using more and more positive reinforcement & clicker I've changed my opinion somewhat.  Is the release of pressure actually seen as a 'reward' or is just 'relief'?  Whilst the 'negative' doesn't have to hurt in negative reinforcement doesn't it, by definition, have to be at least mildly annoying/irritating for the horse for them to want to avoid it?  If you kept poking me in the chest to move me back wouldn't I move back when you came towards me with your finger outstretched?  Too damn right I would   So yes, it works.  BUT is it the best way to teach backing up (for example)?

In contrast, rewarding the horse for moving back when you ask must be more pleasurable for them and make them more amenable to performing the task in the future.  Does the actually performance of the task have 'feel good' feelings for them in the long run which makes them more likely to perform it because of their positive experiences?

I started Saff using -ve reinforcement and yes, she was good on the ground and did as I asked.  I thought that I'd got a good relationship with her and she was a dream to handle.  I had to keep up with the 'training' though because if I got complacent she would start to push the boundaries again so it was back to the -ve reinforcement training.

Since starting with +ve reinforcement I've seen a new dimension to her that I didn't know existed.  She's a much happier horse, she's been described by other liveries as 'placid'  and she actively enjoys working.  Previously she would do the stuff but she wasn't exactly champing at the bit to get into the school whereas now she'll set off on her own given the chance!  I'd forgotten something one day so gave the lead rope to my niece thinking that she'd stop for a graze on the way (well, there's green stuff there!).  Got round to find my niece and Saff standing in the middle of the school.  Apparently she'd set off for the school, got on the arena and was stood there waiting to work    You have to have seen it to believe it!

Our relationship is even better than it was before and she's just so willing.  I've also found that if we need to tell her 'no' we're starting from lower down the scale so a shake of the rope and a stern word is enough to pull her up short. 

I'm not convinced by the school of thought that says that we should treat them like another horse would treat them.  For one we're not horses and I doubt very much whether they see us as another horse so would they see our behaviour in the same way as if it was another horse?  Secondly there is a lot of body language that goes on, threats made but without contact before they ever make good on the threat.  Kicks miss by millimetres, 'bites' don't make contact.  As humans we tend to react and go straight for the contact without the body language and 'threats' along the way.

The next question though is how do you get them to perform the behaviour in the first place?  Surely you need to use -ve reinforcement at some point? 

I suppose you could spend hours waiting for them to, for example, take a step backwards so that you can reward but how realistic is that? 

I think that my conclusion is that a combination of both positive and negative reinforcement is the way to go with the scales tipped towards the positive.  I think that you *could* given loads of time and patience use +ve reinforcement exclusively but it wouldn't be efficient and you could wait days for them to make a 'try' at a behaviour.

Anyway ... it's all food for thought, sorry it's a bit rambly but I was just writing out my thoughts 

Any comments?  I'm always happy to find a better or a kinder way if it's going to make things better for our equines

[bonny]

Very interesting TK.  Haven't really got anything to add but have to say that's all very similar to stuff that's going through my mind at the moment.  I feel very much like I'm searching for my 'own way' and all I really know for certain is that I don't want to include punishment as part of the training.

[intouch]

I just got back from auditing the first day of a Chris Irwin Train the Trainer clinic, he uses -ve reinforcement but his grasp of body language is such that he gets almost instant response from the horses.  Trying to teach his subtlety to others is the difficult bit!  Deeply regret that I couldn't get to the next 2 days.  Chris & his wife Kathryn seem to combine the best of NH with a more traditional angle, with a deep respect for the horse as teacher.  Excellent day.  I feel as if I'm just beginning to learn about horses.
Lesley
PS I've done some CT too, I think it is a very useful tool, but not the whole answer.

[shoveltrash]

i don't like the term negative reinforcement.....because as intouch said, it IS more subtle than that, it IS body language - becomes a 'dance' almost, without a touch!  (Hempfling springs to mind)

i use positive reinforcement WITH "-ive' -- and my boy responds joyfully.  "good boy' and a pat elicits relaxation and happiness after he's done what i've asked. 
regarding "-ive", it is the whole premise of lateral work, moving away from pressure.

to be honest, IMHO it doesn't matter what approach you use, it is the INTENTION that is the key. 
"Only when the horse is fully taken into account as a highly respected partner in the cause - his needs wholly and faithfully met - are the legitimate avenues opened, and can the metamorphosis of two-becoming-one begin to occur" Erik Herbermann

[tollertwins]

tend to agree that it's going to take both.

pony is VERY touch reactive (for whyever...). today i got him to hosed w/o a major panic attack...but he was VERY tense and making anxious blowing noises. kept telling him he was a good boy and he stood still and let me hose him (mostly, anyway) but at the same time looked like he wanted to bolt. he did finally let out one big sneeze and relaxed a little - but never totally relaxed.

so - i'm getting some suggestions re: 'make him work till he's willing to stand there'...which i'll probably do for some situations where i  know he's just being a little snot. but for the ones i think he's really anxious about, i'm going to make some 'special' cookies so that he can get verbal reassurance and something nice as well.....

i don't think that 'making him work' - when I think he's already working by standing even tho he wants to run - is likely to accomplish anything.

[spangal]

Very interesting TK.  Haven't really got anything to add but have to say that's all very similar to stuff that's going through my mind at the moment.  I feel very much like I'm searching for my 'own way' and all I really know for certain is that I don't want to include punishment as part of the training.

I feel very much the same.  I try to be open minded and take other trainers experience on board.  My husband is very much a traditionalist when it comes to breaking a youngsters and believes in -ve reinforcement and desensitising the horse.  Most of the time his technique works, but the 2 difficult youngsters we have had have both responded to IH methods and everything else has sent them backwards in their training.  I read the book and went out to the youngsters and tried it.  Both times it has worked so well it was almost unreal.  I believe creating the bond is the most important thing.  I also believe that the horse sees me as a predator but will accept me and respect and trust  me if I respect him and trust him.  I have not had any battles with these horses and have found it to be very easy and satisfying.  The results are amazing and I have loved doing it.  I have never felt afraid or angry with the horses and being a bit of a wuz couldn't have trained either of these youngsters if I thought I might get hurt.  I have adopted these methods with all the horses and find that the results are great and each of them teaches me something new.

[tollertwins]

Spangal....

What is IH, please? And what is the book you are mentioning?

 

[1 morejump]

I don't think you can train without both.  You don't have to be clicker training to use +ve reinforcement.

I was thinking about this today though so it's kinda funny you brought it up.  I was in the pasture today checking on one of the trees and Lance came bounding up .  He can be a pushy boy when you are in the pasture, I think he wants to play but he really doesn't understand just how big he is.  Anyways, he was getting a little too nuts for my taste so I  walked towards his butt and kept a very determined look on my face looking right at his butt.  In every single pasture setting I have witnessed, the lead horse uses this to tell the others to cut it out or move it.  And you know what? it works, he stopped.

I honestly don't think clicker training would have worked there.  I wanted him to go away and leave me alone, the treats would have just been a reason to stay, and I was busy and didn't want to be worrying about all that.  At the same time though when I was training him to load in the trailer and back out I used clicker training.  Teaching in an instance like that required a lot of positive attitude for him.

Part of being a owner/trainer is that you have to recognize when you use what method.  And different horses need different methods, you really can't say one way is the best because you absolutely must have balance.   

[Appy2quarter]

Great thread, thanks Tashakat!

I agree with the others that there is no 'one' answer, but I also feel that you cannot use +ve reinforcement all the time, but that -ve reinforcement as it is currently defined has to come into the way we deal with our horses.  As others have said, the term 'negative' is what seems to set people off, and many make the assumption that this is the same as punishment, which of course it is not.  There was a lovely article recently by Perry Wood in H&R but right at the front he actually said that negative reinforcement WAS punishment......  arrrgggh. 

Your point about whether the pressure required to ask a horse to move forward/over etc in response is perceived as annoying, irritating etc I think depends partly on how its taught and whether it is a true cue.  A true cue as we hope to have it, is light and soft so (we hope!) the response to a touch on the sides is to move sideways.  Is it still -ve reinforcement?  Yes, according to the definition. 

How we teach such cues is a very good question - I'd rather not learn to move backwards by being jabbed in the chest.  Not only will I probably brace and perform the move with tense muscles, but it'll no doubt be with 'bad grace'!!  As Intouch says, its the subtlty with which the trainer applies a request and rewards the slightest try which is the tricky bit!!  I've seen some great responses by combining this identification of a slight shift with clicker training but also some great ones without the clicker.

There is a place for the bodylanguage sans clicker as 1morejump says - if I go into the field to see my oldie, the others tend to harass me.  I do tend to use my 'mare stare' to say no, its not your turn, you stay over there.  And generally they do.  Could I use clicker to ask them to stand and wait?  Perhaps, but they aren't all my horses so I prefer to use body language.

Much food for thought!!!!

[TashaKat]

i don't like the term negative reinforcement.....

But that is the accepted terminology.  It's our interpretation of 'negative' that's wrong, not the terminology.

'Negative' in terms of reinforcement means that we take something away, for example, the release of pressure.  You can have negative and positive punishment too but that doesn't mean that +ve punishment is 'good'.


A question that I've been thinking about recently is how would -ve reinforcement deal with a horse that doesn't yield to pressure for whatever reason?  I had to handle a horse like that recently and she really didn't 'get' the whole pressure thing?  I, personally, don't like escalating pressure and would prefer to find a different way to ask but how would those who use predominantly -ve reinforcement deal with this?

Also ... how many of those who are sceptical about +ve reinforcement have used it?  I only ask as I was very sceptical about it as the only time that I'd seen it being used was badly.  Once I'd seen it being used correctly (as clicker by Becky and Emma) I started to learn more about it and found it to be very useful and, contrary to my previous experience, found it to be very helpful to the point where it has completely transformed my horse.  It has allowed me to get an 'in' on her brain in stressful situations for example, leading her past the shooters (who are shooting) or, like the other day, when she was quite happy in the field and really didn't want to come in.


I do agree that we have to tailor our training to the individual horse which is why I use a range of methods and use whichever is best for that particular situation.






IH = Intelligent Horsemanship (Kelly Marks).

Her books are Perfect Manners, Perfect Partners and Perfect Confidence.

[TashaKat]

Cross posted with you but:

There was a lovely article recently by Perry Wood in H&R but right at the front he actually said that negative reinforcement WAS punishment......  arrrgggh. 

Arrrggghh indeed!

[sandpiper]

I use positive and negative with the bias very much towards positive; but have no qualms about being very firm if the need arises.  I've seen examples of people who have used only positive and have had a lot of problems with their horses.  I've always equated horse training to training dogs and bringing up children - they need guidance, love, praise and encouragement but if they overstep their boundaries they need to be put back in their place!  I've always found if you are fair and just with any discipline then you won't be resented for it - it's when punishment is unwarranted that resentment and fear start to creep in.

[Appy2quarter]

Funnily enough Tashakat I am dealing with a horse JUST like that at the moment!  If you escalate with the pressure he says 'yes, bring it on' and seems almost to want you to give him a reason to fight.  Why, I can't say but its a very definite feeling both myself and others have commented on.  He will also shut you out and just not respond to the pressure.

What I have been doing is applying the pressure where I want it (eg on the girth area to ask him to move over) and then trying different ways to get him to understand.  This may mean asking when in motion on a circle when it is easier for him to move (its often much harder to move sideways from a standstill) or in the case of backing up, tapping his chest or other area to give him the idea rather than escalating that specific area of pressure if that makes sense?  The other thing is we really have been taking major baby steps and rewarding the slightest slightest thing, because I think he learned that even if he tried, nobody listened.  

Alex Kurland teaches a way of using technique to get the horse to use its own strength against itself which I found worked very well with the horse above.  He wanted to barge forward and by deflecting the energy, he learned far more quickly to respond to the pressure than other ways we'd tried.  Finally, I realised with this horse part of the reason he barged and pushed was that he was totally on his forehand the whole time and almost couldn't help it.  We did lots of halt, rebalance, then yield either back or over and he became so much lighter.  That was a real lightbulb for me as its SO similar to ridden work.

I personally would love to combine the clicker with the above work but we are already on the edge of coping from the yard owner and as she handles said horse, any nipping/barging would be blamed on the clicker so we have to use rewards of release and stroking instead.

Sorry, rambled on a bit.  Have to say I love the clicker and find its great IF used correctly (but isn't that the same for everything?)

[rhillahorse]

  There was a lovely article recently by Perry Wood in H&R but right at the front he actually said that negative reinforcement WAS punishment......  arrrgggh. 

I saw that too! 

I have used CT with negative reinforcement initially, eg. to teach rein back. Otherwise you'd be in for a seriously long wait for the horse to accidentally discover what was required of them. I think sensitive (and well timed) negative reinforcement is necessary to give the horse guidance as to what we are asking them to do. Once the CT and cue is established then the negative reinforcement is no longer necessary.

Hmmmm.....thinking some more - maybe negative reinforcement wouldn't be needed as much when the horse is target trained as this could be used for lots of different purposes.

I do think it's important that the horse is trained to understand and respond to negative reinforcement, though.

[shoveltrash]

Insert Quote
Quote from: shoveltrash on May 24, 2008, 07:09:44 PM

i don't like the term negative reinforcement.....

But that is the accepted terminology.  It's our interpretation of 'negative' that's wrong, not the terminology.

'Negative' in terms of reinforcement means that we take something away, for example, the release of pressure.  You can have negative and positive punishment too but that doesn't mean that +ve punishment is 'good'.

i know it it the accepted terminology, i should rephrase --- i dislike the general misinterpretation that lay people have regarding the term "negative".
for example, from this thread:

I use positive and negative with the bias very much towards positive; but have no qualms about being very firm if the need arises.

negative reinforcement isn't about firmness, nor punishment.

A question that I've been thinking about recently is how would -ve reinforcement deal with a horse that doesn't yield to pressure for whatever reason?  I had to handle a horse like that recently and she really didn't 'get' the whole pressure thing?  I, personally, don't like escalating pressure and would prefer to find a different way to ask but how would those who use predominantly -ve reinforcement deal with this?

i've seen my NH friend stand very quietly, with hand lightly placed on a horse's side.  she gets very tuned in to their energy, and when she feels any subtle shift in it, or in their stance (even a mere LEAN away from her), she releases that light pressure and rewards.  it is a VERY subtle art IMHO, one i don't claim to have mastered - and it's all about using the least pressure possible, with big emphasis on body language and energy. 
the only time she advocates escalation is in an unsafe situation.
my horses have all had perfect ground manners in all situations.  i've used CT some, but there are times when it just isn't applicable (stallion handling in a show situation - basic attention and focus).

i do believe that CT has it's place - i've recommended it many times to posters here.