Evasion and respect, bad ride today

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( warning, long post) So I had a ride with Lance today.  The plan was to go up and down the street a few times, didn't quite work like that.   Once we got to the end of the street the people down there had their 5 horses out, their pasture butts right up to the road and it can be kind of busy. 

Once Lance caught sight of them he began dancing around a bit.  I decided to let him go over and sniff noses ( possibly first mistake?) and when I asked him to keep going he went nuts!   He did a few small rears and just started backing up as evasion.  I can deal with not moving or going to the side but he does this one a lot.  After I finally got him moving again the horses one house down came flying up to meet him, "Oh S**t!" I thought, Lance was really pulling and then when I wouldn't let him go up to them he started to back up.  Then he hit the fence behind him and suddenly I was treated to the biggest rear I have ever sat!  I am convinced that if I had not been on the western saddle with the brestplate both I and the saddle would have come off.

I don't mind telling you that by this point I was more than a little ticked off with him so I got off and we reviewed ALL of his ground manners while walking all the way home.  I am a firm believer that when you fall off you get back on, well I didn't fall off but ending on such a sour note really doesn't sit well with me so after getting him home I got back on and we walked half way down the road and turned back. And he pulled the same stupid stunt!  This is really dangerous, we ride in a place that has a lot of fences and he almost hit a telephone pole this time .  Finally I got him back home and we did some round pen work.     

So my questions are as follows-
Lance is kept by himself at our house, I wish I could get another horse but there is no way my parents will allow it, doesn't matter what happens.  Is it unreasonable of me to expect good behavior while around strange horses?  Can he do it?  I think he just switches his brain off around other horses and I can't get him back onto me.  So is this just a matter of respecting what I am asking?

How do you deal with backing up as an evasion tactic.  He does it to ignore me, no amount of squeezing or kicking helps, I basically have to fight him into a circle and hope he comes out on the right side and doesn't fall down a hill which he has almost done a few times. 

If you made it through all that I thank you, so please, HELP! :(

[luckyrider]

That is just terrible, but not surprising for a horse just coming off of boxrest (unless I remember wrong he is just back into work following his operation?)

You must have already thought of this, but in your place I would be investigating the possibility of keeping him with one of your neighbours who seem to have herds running free.  That is, if such an option might work for Lance.

You did the right thing doing all that groundwork on the way home.  Did you get back on half way home?  Because you say you got off and reviewed ground manners all the way home but once home you say you got back down and walked half way down the road again.

My NH trainers would say not to let the horse sniff noses with other horses as it does tend to take their mind off the rider.  Having said that, I don't think you are to blame here -- I'm sure things would have gone pear shaped either way.  Lance was just not with you yesterday and considering what you've both been through that is not too surprising.

I might try taking him out and about in hand, insisting on manners etc, quite a few times before riding that route again.  If you cannot avoid that route, do it in hand first (as long as you can keep control) checking that his attention is on you and the manners and calmness are there before trying to ride there again.

Is there a route you can go where you reach a nice quiet grassy place for some in-hand grazing?

It is maddening I know but you have to take it very slow to keep everyone concerned safe.

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Some of our neighbors who are a bit closer (actually just across the street) just bought 2 mares so I am just working up the nerves to ask them if I can bring Lance over for a play day.   

once home you say you got back down and walked half way down the road again.

Oops, sorry that should have said, "I got back on"   I hand walked him all the way home and then I got back on and we just went half way down the road.  And there is a shortcut get to the trails but I would have to cut across someone's yard so I am going to have to ask them. 

Today I am going on a trail ride with a friend and her horse.  We are going to be in a big open space with hopefully no one else around since it is a weekday. If he is out with the other horse on a ride he is fine but just meeting other horses turns him into a goon! I think instances like that are really where gaps in our training really show through.  So hopefully today will be better for him and for me. 

But how do you deal with backing up?  I have never had a horse that would do that as evasion and it is really, really dangerous where I ride, he has backed into a fence and a telephone pole I am so scared that one day he will go into the street and the cars won't stop. :(

[Flashback]

Monster backs up as one his many evasions  with him its a dominance issue, he doesnt like to be told *go this way* so to gain control over the situation he opts for reverse, unfortunately he doesnt get away with it cos he has to circle real small (think nose up butt!) until he will listen to the command to stand. he then gets an invite to walk forward, should he choose to ignore said polite invite from my legs i ask again with my back up plan ... nice flicky whip on my boot makes lovely noise, if he chooses to ignore that then nice flicky whip comes down a bit sharpish on his ample butt!

IMO you have to make it really hard work for them when they choose to reverse, so forwards becomes the easier option.

and whatever you do, please DONT reverse him in the direction you actually want to go .... you will only succeed in teaching him that reversing is good!

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Monster sounds a lot like Lance He really doesn't like being told what to do.  No one in my family understands why I won't let them ride him, quite frankly it's because he would dump them off and go do his own thing.  He constantly tests his rider.  I think circles would help, maybe I need to start carrying my whip again.

I totally agree with you, you have got to make the wrong thing extra hard to do and the right thing super easy.

[Flashback]

i also do a LOT of groundwork with him, every day on the pressure halter and line (i use the equipment that Max sells), lots of backing up, standing in his own space and not mine. moving his legs, back and front. getting him to realise that I control his pace, his direction, his body and his mind!

pressure on to move off onto a circle, pressure off as soon as he moves, changing the number of circles each time to keep him on his toes, making him responsible for maintaining pace. changing direction often, sometimes with only a few strides of one direction before stopping and changing again.

and thinking time too .... just letting him stand and think about the work he has just done, letting him assimilate all the information.

then after about 15 or 20 mins of halter work he goes onto long lines, emphasis is on forwards, always forwards, changes of direction and pace, transitions - lots and lots of those!

i have Max's books and DVD and they are such wonderful *tools* to have to help me with Monsters *remedial* training!

and you are quite right to keep the number of jockeys to just the one - you! too many changes of rider too soon in either education or more importantly RE-education can confuse sensitive and challenging horses.

i think when this type of horse finally realises that they can trust you 100% the rewards for the heartache and tears of frustration are boundless!

good on you for persevering 

[luckyrider]

FB and I both have horses like Lance.  Amicus would run backwards into ditches and trees.  It was so bloody frightening.  He started doing it on a bridge over a brook once, the bridge had trip-over height walls on either side and the drop was about two metres -- two metres too many in my book.

When it is actually happening, it is very hard to correct.  Personally I could not put in tight circles once the reversing had started, but got to know the warning signs (not too hard to see coming -- starts with a plant and some snorting), and put the circles in first.  But the work FB has just described (which from the sounds of it is largely what you are doing) will get you to the point that Lance no longer feels the need to reverse at speed, I assure you.

You are just coming out of a particularly difficult time.  You are doing incredibly well already, compared to where I was with Amicus following eight months box rest... it brings out the devil in them and they do not revert back to nice and cuddly the moment they are allowed some turnout.

Good luck with the neighbours.  I do think this would be a brilliant move if they can be persuaded to let him graze with their girls -- but on a permanent basis, really.  Could you pay them rent or do some of the yard chores for them to make it worth their while?

Having said that, the only way to address his manners is the training.  Good luck with it and let us know how he goes!

[shoveltrash]

i'm thankful (touchwood) that i don't have to deal with that sort of issue....it sounds potentially frightening!  Steph your bridge incident gave me <<shivers>>.

FB's advice:

lots of backing up, standing in his own space and not mine. moving his legs, back and front. getting him to realise that I control his pace, his direction, his body and his mind!

pressure on to move off onto a circle, pressure off as soon as he moves, changing the number of circles each time to keep him on his toes, making him responsible for maintaining pace. changing direction often, sometimes with only a few strides of one direction before stopping and changing again.

is wonderful.  EVERY horse owner should do this!  basic basic groundwork.  obedience from the ground first & foremost, then under saddle.


i agree, Lance is just coming off stall rest (difficult), and he lives alone (even more difficult).  give it time....and stay patient.  if he could get turnout with other horses it would be ideal.  can you get a goat? (don't laugh, i'm told they make great companions!)

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Well my mom does like goats Trish, so maybe that is a step in the right direction.

On the brighter side though, Lance and I went on a trail ride today with a friend and things went really well.  We only had a small startle while out, and that was only because the other horse spooked a little bit.  Otherwise he took it all really well I think, especially given that train passing by at 30 yards was blowing his horn, is that really necessary? Yes there was a stop sign but no one was there and it just spooked the horses. 

I think next time we are going to look for a place that is a little further from the highway and train tracks.   Tomorrow I am going to find my Richard Maxwell books and really bite into ground manners.    

  Apparently though Lance's antics from the previous day really startled the neighbors.  My brother was on a walk and they asked if that was him on the horse and he said no and that it was me.  I guess seeing a horse in a full blown rear, and I do mean full blown , really gave them a fright.  Even though I managed to hang on you just don't see that kind if stuff outside of The Lone Ranger and John Wayne movies.  So now I guess we are going to be known as "that fool girl and her crazy horse"

[luckyrider]

It's not a bad image to have!!! 

You can develop this further by going shopping in full chaps with those dangly fringes, and pastry-cutter spurs jangling all over the place.

I've done it, and people tend to not forget you after that.

[lacey]

Only a thought as we have driving horses, but is it worth trying him wearing blinkers? horses have very good vision for the reversing trick, take away that rearwards vision and he may not like it, when starting a new horse to driving we find they must have a lot of trust to back up where they cannot see. You could try long reining wearing them to test the effect.

[smileyginger]

Mary,

was just wondering how you were getting on with the backing as evasion... had a bit of an incident ourselves today (kept backing up until he backed into a hole we couldn't see for the tall grass, bit of spook, twist, rear and ended up smacking each other's heads together  ) it had been a good little mini hack until that moment 

what kind of progress have you made?

Justine

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Oops! Sorry I didn't see this Justine!

We are actually doing very well. Circling seems to really help get the message through to him.  The biggest thing I can say is consistancy, you absolutly must stay right on with this or it won't work at all.  Every now and then Lance will have a very small moment where he tries to back up again but these are fixed really quickly and they are rapidly disappearing.  If you consistantly make the wrong thing very hard and the right thing very easy they do catch on pretty quickly.

They also have to be tight little circles, you pretty much pull the head back towards your knee, a brisk circle is best, they do need to be moving, not just slowly swinging their butt around . I have found that about 2-3 circles gets his attention, if he was really wound up we would go more until he stopped on his own.  After that you gently ask them to move forward, this all goes back to making the right thing very very easy . If he tried to back up again you repeat the whole thing. I never had to do it more than twice in a row with him.

You are better off if you can start in a controled space (arena, paddock, a fenced area) where the behaviour will be exhibited by the horse.  See if there is anywhere close to the barn, even on the property where you can go to start this.  For example, Lance did this near the barn so I started riding by there.  I would rather deal with this to start off close to the barn than on the busy road.       

I know what you mean about backing into a hole. We came very very close to do that one time but the final straw was him backing into the fence and then flipping out. For him that was the apex of unacceptable behaviour   think of all the evasion techniques this is one of the most dangerous, and we have since nipped it in the butt.    Good luck with your boy, please keep me posted!

[whisper's mum]

I hope anyone with this problem gets it sorted, I had a horrible incident when I was 13 riding a 15.2hh cob. She napped on a hack and started to run backwards, ending up falling down a deep ditch. We fell over backwards with me thrown into the bottom and her falling on me!  Luckily the ditch was v shaped and she wedged a few inches above me so I wasn't crushed...she did break my nose with her head though, as she threw it around trying to get upright.  :( No serious harm done...it could've been a lot worse but I'm wary of horses that do this now. 

[Appy2quarter]

Interesting thread - glad to hear you are making progress with Lance.  Like Whispers mum I ended up in a huge ditch many years ago with a mare who ran backwards, then reared, then fell over. Those drainage ditches in the fens are pretty big!!

My gelding will run backwards if he thinks he can - just like all the others its a case of not wanting to be told; similarly he will buck if he thinks he can argue the toss.  interestingly enough, running backward and bucking are both symptoms of not genuinely being forwards.  Once he tried to run back onto the road and I must admit I walloped him really, really, hard.  its fine for him to stop, to think etc but that just wasn't an option, far too dangerous!  He hasn't done that since. 

Loly has been known to actually canter backwards up a hill, the little wretch!!!  Just as everyone else has suggested, I've done lots of groundwork - often a horse who uses backup as an evasion has a problem when asked to back up (and I mean backup, not run backwards) so we have worked on this, plus controlling the backup when on board - eg figure 8s, circles etc.  Once we got this cleared up, the evasion disappeared and he hasn't done it for several years - the key is that we keep checking up on the groundwork and I try to spot any issues that might be surfacing early on if I can.

Glad to hear Lance is getting better and learning that running back isn't actually the fun he might have thought it was!  you make a brilliant point about consistency - horses, especially those who like to challenge direction, spot the minute you have relaxed the boundaries.  My boy is a lovely chap to be around but I found out that if I let a little shift be ignored when mounting, it becomes a step and if I let THAT go without correcting, he will then walk off!