rein back

[Claire]

at what stage in the training would you teach rein back under saddle (as opposed to in hand...)

[Trudi]

Hi Claire 

Good question! For me it would be different for different horses. Take my two. Moralejo, born in a 'collected' shape and short coupled with a strong back and rein back started when we had a minimum of collection in our work. Fidget, longer backed and weaker under saddle and rein back introduced on the ground but waited for more ability to collect before starting the rein back work ridden.

I think it is important that the rein back comes from a desire to move forwards in the halt and if you have a flat, on the forehand halt then it's not time yet to start the reinback. Rein back helps stretch and strengthen the lumbar area and encourages him to tilt his pelvis correctly but if it is done badly it can cause more problems than it cures, IMHO!!

Trudi

[Claire]

thank you that was helpful.

Question came out of my continuing reading of Podhajsky (3 hours in hairdresser yesterday!) - he said, don't start it until you're working in collection.  yet I know, as others have said/shown, that it can also be a tool to assist towards collection/getting haunches under.

[JayneH]

I teach reinback reasonably early - before I have collection. In the early days it is as much about moving forward out of the reinback than the actual reinback itself.

For me it must come from putting my shoulders back not by using the reins. The reins only stop the energy going forward they don't make the horse go back. I wouldn't ask reinback on a young horse if all that ends up happening is sawing on the reins.

One of the easiest ways i've found to first ask reinback is to move the hindquarters across and then ask for back. It's all a fluid movement and I believe is actually a Baucher movement - but could be wrong there.

Cheers
Jayne

[Claire]

thank you jayne...

food for thought then. 

[ludlu]

I teach reinback reasonably early - before I have collection. In the early days it is as much about moving forward out of the reinback than the actual reinback itself.

For me it must come from putting my shoulders back not by using the reins. The reins only stop the energy going forward they don't make the horse go back. I wouldn't ask reinback on a young horse if all that ends up happening is sawing on the reins.

One of the easiest ways i've found to first ask reinback is to move the hindquarters across and then ask for back. It's all a fluid movement and I believe is actually a Baucher movement - but could be wrong there.

Cheers
Jayne

Jayne, please excuse a question!  You talk about putting your shoulders back (as does Anja Beran in text, but doesn't see to actually ask that way)

May I ask your aids for a rein back ...can you talk me through it?   To put myself in the firing line, my aids for it bring my shoulders FORWARDS, I apply leg and hand as needed to encourgae movement an keep straight. 

I also have taught rein back fairly early.  I have never taught the lateral moves before  and so with my babies I find rein back essential in progression to self carriage.

Forwars is always important for me, and so I do not teach this until I have happy and confident transitions forwards, undersaddle.  My kids always step back from the beginning in hand.  I believe this is how someone as stupid as me ON a horse has found teaching the rein back ok. 

[JayneH]

Hi Ludlu,
You don't sounds 'stupid' at all to me I think you're right to teach them on the ground first and to wait until you're happy with forward transitions.

And I'm very happy to answer questions. I'm happy to prattle on for hours.

To ask for rein back I put both legs on and put my shoulders back. By putting my shoulders back I mean just opening my chest a little and putting them back a little. My fingers just shut to stop the energy going forward if they try to walk forward my hands can also correct the shoulders by moving sideways.
 

  To put myself in the firing line, my aids for it bring my shoulders FORWARDS, I apply leg and hand as needed to encourgae movement an keep straight.

Not firing line at all
The reason that I do the transitions like that is related to how I train high school movements. eg.To ask for piaffe all I do is create energy by putting my legs on, and then use my back (by moving my stomach to my hands- this way allows the horse to use it's back more freely) and then putting my shoulders back a little to help keep the movement in place. This leads on to levades and trot backwards all basically done with where your shoulders are.
Same in theory with canter in place and canter backwards (all tho the second is still just theory for me).

It's all about being able to create energy and then control it without having weight in the reins. If you have the basics of being able to stop by using your back only and then ask rein back without using the reins then it makes the high school movements possible.

Does that make any sense? So much easier to show in person 

[Claire]

trot backwards

Same in theory with canter in place and canter backwards

?  trot backwards?  canter in place and backwards?

Jayne, think you'd best start a new thread somewhere on these!

Getting back to rein back, I had understood it was a very slight lean back, not forwards, and not allowing with the hands - do the legs just stay draped, or ask for movement?

I'm glad I asked this question, this is interesting!

[Fiona]

  It's all very complicated 

I came to Heather from a Western background, where we were taught to rein back by putting the shoulders back and I've had to relearn to reinback by putting them forwards.

I can see the logic in the explanations for both methods, but which one is better?

Fiona

[drummers mum]

I do shoulder forwards too.  When I have Drum light and in my hands, I hardly have to move and he is reversing. Somewhere in the depths of my mind I have an explanation but I'm too tired and hung over to remember it!

No offence but shouders back reminds me of how my YO does reinback parelli style and his horse are often hollow with their heads in the air!

[Heather]

I too was always taught to lighten the seat by inclining shoulders slightly forward from the hips, to allow room for the back to step through. I was taught this by my German trained trainer, and have used it since.


The shoulders back theory is taught in Portugal, and is very much a bullfighting technique- shoulders forward for increase in speed, lean slightly to one side for a sideways move and shoulders back for reverse!

It works both ways, but for me, the fact that you want the horse to lift and round the back in rein back, and the weight can all too easily drop back over the very part of the back that you want to raise, can cause a problem  and make the horse hollow. In the case of Anja, and I am certain, Jayne, their hips/pelvis would slide slightly forward, and only the shoulders would come back, hollowing the lower back, but without weighting the part of the back that you want to lift. This is for very skilled riders! But I would continue to teach the slight forward incline to less experienced riders as I find it works and there is no chance of the rider squashing the bit of the back you want to lift!!

Heather

[ludlu]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOoh so now I have MORE questions!  (Thanks Jane!)

Having never ridden any advanced movements (but definitely aioming too!) do you feel his is easier with the shoulder back technique having been established in rein back, or merely habit of how you have been taught to train?

Hollowing the back so that my pelvis were tipping and my shoulders not might be worth playing with.

If you want to show me in person..... you'd be very welcome!

[sandpiper]

I've always done the slight incline forwards too and it's always worked well for me, was getting a bit confused here! .  I thought if I put shoulders back I'd tend to block the movement, but I appreciate the movements are very subtle 

[JayneH]

I  hope people aren't watching me at work - I've just been sitting here 'asking for reinback' in my seat - questions might be asked.

This is for very skilled riders!

*blush* but we're going to probably have to agree to disagree on this one

In the case of Anja, and I am certain, Jayne, their hips/pelvis would slide slightly forward, and only the shoulders would come back, hollowing the lower back, but without weighting the part of the back that you want to lift.

I'm really hoping that also means that Anja uses her back in the same way that I do (it's rare to find someone who does). I understand the concern with blocking the movement by putting weight on the back but the way that I was taugh to use my back (as heather has said here) - by taking my stomach to my hands - means that my seat lightens when I do. Unlike the western stop or FEI stop where your weight is put into the back of your saddle - putting your shoulders back ontop of this would be like grinding your bottom into the back of the poor horse trying to go backwards.

Shoulders forward doesn't logically link for me for doing the higher school stuff - but we're always generally biased to the way we were taught   and I know I'm not going to question who taught me <grin>

do the legs just stay draped, or ask for movement?

Both legs on asking for movement.

Having never ridden any advanced movements (but definitely aioming too!) do you feel his is easier with the shoulder back technique having been established in rein back, or merely habit of how you have been taught to train?

Well I think it saves a lot of time and re-training if it all links together. Perhaps people are asking for piaffe etc using different methods and in which case it might all link together for them. One of my aims is to eventually ride and train the 'fantasy' movements (eg. canter backwards, canter on three legs) on top of doing correct classical movements. It's important to me to have how i'm going to ask for movements kind of worked out before I start and I think for the horse to have as much of a linear journey as possible - it's going to have to deal with me stuffing it up enough as it is.

Actually I also find it also strange that people swap to asking for canter using an inside leg when the horse gets to a high level. I understand some of the theory and I think Nuno did it on some horses but I still don't quite get the point - we all live and learn.

[ludlu]

Ok, I'm gonna try this tomorrow, a friend is coming down for a pay so I can get her to help me up (always dependant on someone else to get me up there, rofl) and I'm going to have a play at this before she rides.   

I'll let you know how it goes, maybe we can get some pictures or something.