Racinet's thirty-five propositions... his view on counter canter

[Bejay]

In respect to proposition no.6, I thought that the idea of more contact on the outside rein, was to encourage, or train, the horse to step into the contact, so that it didn't fall onto it's inside shoulder, and so that you don't need to overdo the use of your inside leg. I have certainly spent time teaching mine in hand to move over into a light contact on the outside rein, and they can do this without losing inside flexion, and that's just with a tickle from my fingers - not a spur - and no inside rein contact, as I have isolated the outside rein to make sure that they really understood this.

I know that working from the ground simplifies things, as you can use body language as well, but am I missing something here, please, more experienced people? I thought that the ideal to aim for was just weight of the rein on the inside rein (or even less), and very slightly more contact on the outside rein, while making sure that the outside rein is long enough to allow the bend.

Edited to add that I started doing this work on isolating and stepping into the outside rein contact in hand, because under saddle they were both falling onto their inside shoulder on one rein, and I found myself with too much contact on the inside rein, and having to use an awful lot of inside leg to try to get them onto the outside rein (if that makes sense).

[luckyrider]

Heather is right!

I should have been more careful.

I do have JC's written permission to translate this if I can find a publisher.  However I was taking a bit of a liberty using you all as a "sounding board"... incredibly useful as it has been.  I will have to turn my attention now to sourcing a publisher (any ideas?  Heather's e-books thing may work...)

As for Heather's book into French!!!      

[Elinda]

yes i can offer a publisher ... will send you a PM w/ details.

elinda

[Heather]

Great, Elinda!!

I had no idea you had been in touch with JC Steph!! But lets keep this for full members, eh? Nice benefit for them

Heather

[christuris]

The Tridimensional Law (Racinet refers to it "above" so I had to assume he expounds on it in the previous chapter) relates to roundness and bend and has something to do with the way the vertebrae rotate, depending on the bend.  Contrary to what we might think, when a horse is correctly bent to the inside, the vertebrae rotate outwards, not inwards, and this contributes to the hollowness or roundness of the horse.  There are three aspects to this, and I keep on forgetting exactly what they are, but when you have two, ipso facto you have the third, and it goes in reverse too -- you can get either hollowness or roundness.  So when people talk about bending around the inside leg, he shows that it's physically not possible first and foremost (the lumbar vertebrae cannot bend), and secondly, if you try too hard, you get the rib cage going in the wrong direction, and therefore the vertebrae, hence hollowness.

I'll check this out when I get home tonight and let you know.  Maybe I can reproduce it here for you if it's not one of his propositions.

And no, the crossover in the half pass is different from what he's saying about the legs coming too far under the body.  I think Nadja also deals with the latter in Horses for Life -- I know that she keeps pointing out how overly straight the joints are when this happens...

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
http://AlphabetRanch.smugmug.com

[christuris]

This isn't exactly the excerpt I was looking for on the Tridimensional Law -- however, there's a brief description of it on page 31 in Total Horsemanship.  I'll have to keep looking for it...

     If the rotation goes outwardly with respect to the lateral flexion, the vertebral column will tend to display a convex profile (will "round" itself);

     If the rotation goes inwardly, the vertebral column will tend to display a concave profile (will "hollow" itself).

     Thus there are two very important "triads," which should be constantly borne in mind when one wants to manipulate:

     "outward rotation, inward bending, convexity"

     and

     "outward rotation, inward bending, concavity"

     With each triad, establishing two elements will entail the coming up of the third.  For instance, if we create outward rotation and inward bending, convexity will ensue.  If we create outward rotation and convexity, inward bending will ensue.  And if we create inward bending and convexity, outward rotation will ensue.


Giniaux, in his book "What the Horses Have Told Me" on page 108 puts it this way:

(1) Those are indeed the natural curvatures of the column in a vertical plane which allow the lateral bendings.

(2) If the bank is round (convex), a lateral bending entails an inward rotation of the spinous processes with respect to the bending.

If you have grasped these explanations, you know now why untrained horses who gallop at liberty bear their heads and necks outward when they turn:

The thoracic and lumbar vertebrae being in a state of "kyphosis" (convexity), if the horse turns to the right his vertebrae rotate to the left.  The cervical by contrast are naturally in a state of "lordosis" (concavity), and if he would bear his head and neck to the right as he turns to the right, his cervical vertebrae would rotate to the right.


I just wish I could find the piece I'm thinking of -- I always lose it...  Maybe it's in one of those "Riding in Lightness" journals...

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
http://AlphabetRanch.smugmug.com

[Elinda]

i think i've seen others post this link

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/BioMechBook.html#SampleImages

the images and drawings are helpful to see the anatomical changes. click on each one to enlarge.

elinda

[christuris]

Well, I skimmed "Total Horsemanship" this evening over supper and I found what I was looking for -- in the chapter under the heading "Work on a circle, bending a horse" on page 52 there is a very good explanation of how this tridimensional law works.

On page 54 he even has a few references to the half pass problem, where he says there will be a torque.  He also talks about the possible damage done to a horse's lumbar vertebrae or the last thoracic (T-18), who has straight or stiff hocks (he cites Arabians), in a "classical" or four track shoulder-in!  He advises working very slowly up to the four track from the three track.

Luckyrider, can you tell us what the date of publication is of this original French book? It looks like "Total Horsemanship" was published in 1999.

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
http://AlphabetRanch.smugmug.com

[luckyrider]

Twinkle, I forgot to say how nice it is when things like that work (bringing inside shoulder forward and sitting more to the outside in canter transitions).  So you're getting a nice sort of joyful hop into canter now which is immediately rewarding isn't it?  I must say I sometimes lose concentration but what you say just reminded me to clean up my canter departs now.

Elinda has just pm'd me with a great publisher contact, many many thanks.

Christina, you obviously have your finger on the exact same law, but in 35 Propositions JC does not actually refer to it in so much detail or even by this name.  But it is obviously the same thing he is alluding to in point 6 of his essay four paragraphs from the end -- touch the horse with your inside spur and he will twist his trunk to try and avoid it, rotating his spinal processes inwards and thus hollowing his back.  The twisting of the trunk makes perfect sense, I just tried it on all fours and got my son to sit on me and jab my side... I don't really think I am a horse but this seemed to work the same for me.

Date of publication looks to be 2005, publisher is Favre.

[twinkle11]

think it just makes it so much easer for her to balance herself as canter has been a big prob with Amber she needs as much balance as i can give her (well be as balanced as i can be f you no what i mean) but litrally the first time i asked in this way it made a massive improvement to her she just bounced into it like never before. would love to no if anyone else has had any success aswel with this?

ive never really gotten the inside leg to outside hand to be honest never made sense to me!

thanks so much for doing what you have already done steph hope you can continue soon

[whisper's mum]

Keep going please

That last bit was particularly interesting, being constantly shouted at to "turn your body" it's fascinating to read the other side of the coin.  I know why it's wrong to turn your hips in the direction you want the horse to go, but the shoulders is a new dimension.

I wonder if I can get away with just turning my head? 

Fiona

You haven't had enough Heather lessons yet hun!  Yes, you can get away with only turning your head!!!  Turning the shoulders weights your outside seatbone and has the opposite effect of the one you intend.

For example, if I was on the left rein and wanted to circle left but turned my shoulders to the inside, my weight would transfer to the right (outside) seat bone and the horse would, in all likelihood, follow that weight aid and slide through the outside shoulder which would then require a firmer outside rein aid and probably an overuse of the inside rein, a stronger outside leg...and so on...

Instead, if I'd kept my body straight and advanced my inside hip the weight would transfer to the inside (left) seatbone and we'd turn left! Easy! 

[Fiona]

Perhaps I am already only turning my head - I definitely already turn by advancing my inside seatbone, I just assumed because I was looking in the direction I was going that my shoulders were turned that way.  Can you remember what it looked like at the Christmas demo? (I need more video of myself riding!)

When I say "get away" with only turning my head I mean get away with it without being told to turn my body too, not get away with it in the sense that the horse does what I want it to 

Ho hum, perhaps it will take me longer than a year to do level one EETT :(

Fiona

[whisper's mum]

I bet you are just turning your head  If you are told to turn your shoulders just pretend to be deaf.  I can't remember what you did at the Xmas do, perhaps Tashakat could email you some piccies  I'm hoping that she'll have time to show me one or two  of my lesson on Fanta because I learn SO much from seeing them. You'll be a FAB teacher, you ride beautifully.   

[twinkle11]

Ho hum, perhaps it will take me longer than a year to do level one EETT :(

Fiona

dont be stupid you will be a fabby teacher your great at riding and its just one big massive learning curve and im sure theres so much will never no it all 

[Fiona]

I bet you are just turning your head 

That's probably why I'm always being shouted at 

Fiona