Bitless Bridle

[Camacoona]

Hi,
I agree with all that has been said so far, just wanted to share some of my experiences of bitless bridles and schooling.

My previous trainer, rescued a very 'angry' chap from the 'knackers wagon' as he was a confirmed, vicious rearer.  she paid £50 for him, and set about working on him, although trust had to be rebuilt, she changed his bit from a simple snaffle to an English hackamore, problem solved, she managed to locate the problem to 'fleshy' lips and gums which were being pinched by any bit put in his mouth.

Ginnie, trained in spain, and very classical in her approach and philosophy to training, managed to school him to paiffe and passage in a hackamore, and because of the curb strap was able to gain relaxation of the jaw.  (unfortunately the curb strap is often higher set on a hackamore than on a pelham, so it isn't perfect)

Heather also comments about this in her book, and talks about horses performing paiffe and passage in hackamores.

Omar

[pintopiaffe]

so many folk think changing the bit is the answer to all their prayers ........... that one particular bit will transform their horse into a GP/top sj/top xc etc ......... when in reality, they should look to their standard of riding/horse training level for their answers.

Hay... I resemble that remark!  :blush:

I'm going to disagree slightly, because now not once, but twice I have found the absolute right bit makes ALL the difference.

The first time was my big bay broodmare before she broke her pelvis.  She was always very forward and very light--but almost too light.  The weight of the reins was all the contact she'd take... but she was *not* to a level of balance and collection where that was appropriate.   I tried lots of fancy KK leine bits, snaffles of all kinds... and finally found the absolute miracle for her--a mullen mouth.  Went from sort-of-training level to working in 2nd (and on piaffe) in a summer once we made that discovery.  

Now, with Mac, he was profoundly happier in a curved bit like JP or Myler.  And had gone quite well in his JP fullcheek... but lately I was thinking there was just *something* missing... he could lean and get a little... dull... on it,  for lack of a better word.  And I knew I was onto something because his work in the pelham was DRAMATICALLY better.  Which made me greedy.  I wanted the softness and throughness in a 'legal' bit that we have in the pelham.   And again, I've found a really great bit for him in the JP Baucher.  The difference is pretty amazing, he is more mobile in the mouth, softly chewing, and much softer in the poll and jaw.

So I DO think there is a 'magic bit' for every horse.  And sometimes it takes us a long, long time to find it, but it's worth trying.  And if that's *no* bit, well, then that is fine too--I really, truly feel that it's THEIR mouth, they should have some opinion in the matter!  

[Elizabeth1]

I agree that the right bit can make all the difference.  The issue here is that many people do not really know the actions of different bits and think they are the be all and end all.

About the schooling work I was doing with Promise.  We did get her back in a snaffle, but she has now been sold.  I would have been a bit nervous about just going straight to a snaffle as she distrusted the hands so much, that she would head flip constantly and run sideways.  I just used the bitless to get her to concentrate on the seat aids, so that some control was returned.  She was however 19 years old and fairly arthritic in both knees.  We were looking to get her to relax and go forward and straight.  Much more than that would have been asking a lot in a short space of time.  I only took her on to reschool and get her ready for selling on.

My own horse is schooled in a sweet iron french link, which he seems to like, but hacked in his bitless.

[Candypony]

Hi all

Just like to add that, on Saturdays, I'm one of those people behind a counter in a tack shop and find it absolutely amazing how many people immediately assume I'm an expert on bitting (amongst other issues)!!   :blink: Now, as a confirmed horse-aholic, I do know a reasonable amount about different bits, and will offer some advice when/if pushed, but ultimately the decision and responsibility has to belong to the person buying the bit and riding in it, especially as I won't have seen the horse/rider.

The only time I have ever agreed to sell "brakes" has been where children are involved and even then I'm a little conservative as to what I'll pluck off the wall to show a customer...

On another note, I rode Candy in a hackamore (english style) when I first re-backed her as she hated having any bit near her mouth - did wonder if she'd been rushed when backed (not by me) or if she'd been teething... She always went very well in it.

S

[Flashback]

QUOTE 
so many folk think changing the bit is the answer to all their prayers ........... that one particular bit will transform their horse into a GP/top sj/top xc etc ......... when in reality, they should look to their standard of riding/horse training level for their answers.



Hay... I resemble that remark!

sorry PP! shouldve made myself bit clearer (no pun intended  :lol: ) ...... i was talking in general, with regards the section of the horse world that see, for example, carl hester/tim stockdale/mary king using a particular bit/feed/supplement and think they can be like them if they use the same!  

i was not in any way denegrating those of us who are experienced enough to know when to effect a bit change for the benefit of the horse! :blush:  

[lmevans]

must confess I'm a bit juggler too - try all sorts until gee gee tells me he/she's happy. Casper was the easiest, as I backed him I knew he was naive to any kind of bit, so started with a happy mouth straight bar snaffle. He ate it, mmm, lovely can I have another  :blink: , happened to have an old fat mouth jointed eggbutt snaffle in the trunk - he HATED it with a passion. Leaning on the hands, yawing his jaw constantly, shaking his head, chucking his ears about (and they were serious ears - won a prize for 'horse with the biggest ears' at his first ever show!) and chomping wildly. Steering disappeared and any form of listening out the window. Lasted 15 minutes and never used it again! Went on to french link eggbutt and later a french link filet baucher and never looked back. Was also totally happy in a  french link pelham, seemed to find it easier to understand what I wanted - more obvious I guess to a green baby.

Noosa too is now is filet baucher JP french link, snaffle in school and light hacks, pelham for anything faster. She's a heavy 17.2hh and knows exactly how much she can p*** off to the horizon with me in a snaffle and several of our local paths end up on roads!

friend on the yard has a Dr. Cook copy (not the real thing I don't think) and also commented that she doesn't think it "lets go" when you do - the bits that run into the reins seems to stick in the rings and don't move freely like you would hope.

Good luck whatever you decide to use, listen the your horse - they're usually right!

Lucie xx

[minky]

Pinto
 Im totally with you on the bitting ...we dont have a problem with brakes,steering & ive been doing lots of work on ''trying <_< ''to have quieter hands.
  But i know we havent found the perfect bit  for him yet ...maybe a bitless is worth our consideration...i wont rule anything our if he's happier with it!  

[debgibsonmt]

Flexion of the jaw ala Baucher is the 'chew and swallow' which releases the TMJ and atlanto-occipital joint. To foster it you apply direct flexions of different sort The results are a relaxation throughout the entire body

Ok, I've been thinking about this chew, swallow, which releases the TMJ and  atlanto-occipital joint etc. for a couple of days now and there's a  couple...maybe more...things that I cant wrap my brain around in regards to this  theory.  

The first is the idea that the horse has to release the TMJ joint to then release the antlanto-occipital joint.  If that is the case, then how do they perform highly collected maneuvers with a great deal of flexion at the poll (and we've all seen them do this) when turned out with no rider and no bit.  I doubt, though I could be wrong, they are chewing and swallowing in order to flex at the poll.

 The second is the idea that by releasing the jawbone as in chewing etc. that this would somehow make flexing at the poll easier.  I don't see how it could.  In fact, it appears to me that if a horse is very flexed at the poll, and then opened his  jaw, it would actually make it harder to flex.  There is only so much space between the back of the jaw and the wings of the atlas and in that space you have glands, muscles and nerves.  

The general rule of thumb is to make sure your horse has at least 2 fingers space in that area.  There are some horses with poor confirmation that do not have 2 fingers space between the back of the jawbone and the wing of the atlas.  This conformational defect makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for them to flex at the poll due to compressing glands and nerves in that space.  Even on normal horses, if they have swollen glands for any reason, will have a hard time flexing or maintaining a flex. Both scenarios can cause anything from simple resistance to flexing/bending to outright rearing or bolting.

Deb

Please feel free to argue, debate, whatever, I’m open to all of it.
 

[Jolene]

I don't have a whole lot to add re: flexing the jaw and chewing, but wanted to add that my filly really dislikes her bit...  She chews constantly (not quiet champing, but active chewing) and will *not* stop from the bit.  She just sent the second trainer to the hospital Sunday evening (concussion, no lasting damage, thank goodness) for bucking, which I'm nearly positive is related to back pain of some sort.  Anywho, onto the point, I decided to hook her lead rope back around on her rope halter like reins (I think some of the trainers call this a rope hackamore) and ground drove her from the shoulder and guess what?  Little Lady had power steering and anti-lock braking!  Had this lovely, calm expression on her face as well instead of the worried look she gets when bitted.  I'm contemplating ordering a Dr. Cook bridle to ride her in until I'm sure all her baby tooth caps are popped and then we'll probably move on to adding a bit as well and using two sets of reins until she's comfortable with the bit.  Any more ideas?  I've contacted a few equine chiropractors in the state so hopefully at least one of them will make a farm call, so won't be attempting to get on her again until she's adjusted, but am still pottering about getting her actually comfortable with the mounting process, although am not going to put any weight on her back while she's still out of whack.

[aramco_trainer]

Hi

In my opinion this is getting way to complicated. If a horses relaxes he should automaticaly come on the bit or into the bridle or what ever you want to call it. A horse that resists the bit normally has a good reason to do so.Like in my earlier statements I see nothing wrong with the Dr Coock in a beginning level however as things advance you need more subtle touches and there is no other area as sensative as the mouth the slightest movement you perform with the hands gets transmitted you raise the hand the bit will rise , you open the rein the pressure is lateral you close the hand the pressure is backwards and all this in inch work. I doubt the dr Coock has the quality to transmit very subtle commands in the same way. Another thing is that with a bit of pressure let's say the right rein there is a pressure build up on the right side of the nose and left side of the poll which might even encourage the horse to tilt it's head. I am not sure but the future will tell   .

Anyway the excuse for bitless seems to be that a bit is harsh and a bitless is not or a I even heard the horse when he works sucks vacium so he can breath better I see horses run in the field with their mouth open etc and this statement I totally disagree with. A bit is only as harsh as the riders hands and tact allows it to be and , because the mouth is sensitive it can be even kinder than a bitless I even dare to say.

 

[Woody]

Okay so I thought I might add an interesting question here.

If it was totally the norm to ride a horse in a headcollar and someone came up with this marvellous invention that enabled folk to train their horses to a much higher level much more 'easily' by putting a piece of metal in their mouth and attaching reins to it would we do it?

If that really was the case I wonder what the RSPCA would say.

What about if someone came up with a similar 'great at getting your dog to walk to heel' device - granted dogs don't have a convenient space in their mouth like horses do - would it sell?

They're questions that have scrambled my brain to help me challenge my own opinion of norms.  

At this moment in my life I intend to try to train everything using bitless to the same quality as when bitted.  Undoubtedly I'll have to do things differently but it's an exciting time I'm in trying to work out different cues.

Woody

[debgibsonmt]

Hey Jolene,

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think your mare has back problems.  Other than the bucking that is.  Did she have an outright accident or something?

And Woody,

I'm in trying to work out different cues

I think you've just hit the nail on the head.  This is really what I'm after.  Someone who has already worked out the cues...that is of course if there is anyone....

Deb

[Woody]

Hi

The most amazing thing I realised when I changed one of my horses to a bitless bridle was how many cues they have by the touch of the rein on and off their neck and in combination with seat and leg.  I hadn't realised how important this was.

2 of my other horses I'm going to train 100% bitless from the beginning ( although, for their own safety at some point I'm probably going to have to train them to understand bit cues in case I drop off the face of the earth and they end up living with someone else)

I was able to get on and immediately do everything I had with a bit in his mouth - my jaw hit the ground (very relaxed you understand!) Now I guess some experts might then say what I was doing must have been rubbish to start with...!!

Woody

[aramco_trainer]

Hi woody ,

about the if question I have only one answer that is if my sister would have been a boy she would have been my brother  

Now more serious

The most amazing thing I realised when I changed one of my horses to a bitless bridle was how many cues they have by the touch of the rein on and off their neck and in combination with seat and leg. I hadn't realised how important this was


This is already a very welknown factor by baucher practicioners and no doubts that for every day stuff the bitless will do fine but the question here is about bitless and very advanced dressage as in passage and piaffe if it possible to go in that direction and there is no information about that anywhere. Simply cause it is most probably not viable just maybe it is possible I have no idea I 'm riding Debs horse but doubt if the progress will go half as fast in the lateral stage mayor bending problems but we will see .It's intresting anyway

And man I am making a mess out this quote thing no idea how it works lol

cheers michael

This post has been edited by aramco_trainer on 27 Apr 2005, 12:38 PM


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"A horse will never tire of a rider who possesses both tact and sensitivity because he will never be pushed beyond his possibilities."a nuno oliveira quote

[Jolene]

why do you think your mare has back problems

Both the trainer that came off and I have run our hands down her back, down the center and each side, and there are places where she flinches a bit and then there are places where the skin shakes quite heavily and she tucks her butt under, that's why I think she has back problems.  Can't hurt to rule it out, either.

For not being able to train a horse to a high level bitless, I don't think it's impossible.  I think it will take a lot of good, quality work, but isn't unreachable.  I'm going to attempt it with my girl anyway as she matures and can handle (and understand) the work.