Bitless Bridle

[debgibsonmt]

I decided to give up bits in favor of the bitless bridle (I'm useing the Dr.Cook).  My hobby for the last year or so has been trying to learn to ride classical dressage ( came from hunting/showjumping/racingin backgroud) I have two horses, one a 14 year old Anglo/Arabl mare who goes better in a bitless than anything else and a green 6 year old Thoroughbred gelding who is currently being schooled in a bitless and comming along nicely.

I'm having a hard time finding anyone who has schooled to a very high level with a bitless though.  Anyone out there with any experience in this please speak up!  The general opinion, from my husband (BHSAI) and my riding instructor (Portuguese School) seem to be that you can't train a horse to a high leve in a bitless.  I'm not so sure....

Anyway, I'm giving it a go.  If anyone else is interested in this topic please join in.

Oh, I'm also having my instructor school Angelus, my green Thoroughbred, in a bitless once a week as an experiment, I ride him the other days of the week.  I will be posting our experiences , good and bad, that will hopefully be helpful to others.  

I'd be interested in hearing other members experiences with bitless bridles.

Deb

[pintopiaffe]

well, you can school to extremely high levels in a bosal... which is a hackamore... it's western, but it's an art, and is as much about collection and mobility on the haunches as any dressage I've ever seen!

I think what I wonder about is flexion of the jaw.  If you're a closet Baucherist, (as I am) then you truly believe that lightness and throughness come only with flexion of the jaw... and I'm not sure how you'd get that with a bitless.  Not saying you can't--just saying not sure how.  

[Jolene]

I'm still muddling through all this Baucherist/anti-Baucherist stuff and I've been interested in the Bitless Bridle for a loooong time.  What I'm wondering is why exactly do you need to relax the jaw?  When a horse is free he can move collected and lightly (although not always the preferred mode, happens easily when doing quick stops, turns, etc.).  This leads me to believe that if we have to relax the jaw to get it we must be doing something to tense the jaw in the first place.  Sound crazy?  I'm also a fan of riding almost entirely from the seat much of the time, so if you can get your horse soft and elevated and "get the horse's back" with your seat, why would you need to flex/relax the jaw?  Not trying to be antagonistic, genuinely curious here.

Edited to add:  Sorry, you said only flexion of the jaw and I somehow "read" relax, so just interchange... :blush:  

[pintopiaffe]

we must be doing something to tense the jaw in the first place.

\

well, of course!  We are putting on a saddle and riding them!  

Flexion of the jaw ala Baucher is the 'chew and swallow' which releases the TMJ and atlanto-occipital joint.  To foster it you apply direct flexions of different sorts.  The results are a relaxation throughout the entire body.

Agree completely that the riding should be primarily off the seat... but it will take most of us a lifetime (and several lifetimes of several horses) to get there... if instead we can foster relaxation and throughness with a reaction... why not.

This is why the pelham is so useful... the ation of the curb chain encourages flexion of the jaw, while the mullen mouthpiece is very gentle and accomodating of several types of mouth conformation.

If you're really interested in the theory and practice of the French School, I highly recommend Jean-Claude Racinet's "Another Horsemanship" and "Racinet Explains Baucher"  The second being more useful as a reference text rather than an entire paradigm shift of riding... though that may be the result anyway.

(Mind you, I may not admit to any of this in the morning... )

[debgibsonmt]

Well, I must say I'm trilled with two responses in less than two hours.  My mind is already swimming with things regarding this subject.

undefinedBaucherist/anti-Baucherist stuff

Hmmm...never heard of him, but that's ok, I'll google him.  Like I said, I'm new to the classical riding so am trying to learn as fast as my 50 year old body will let me.  My mind doesn't seem to work as fast as it used to either, but that's a different subject altogether.

Flexion of the jaw ala Baucher is the 'chew and swallow' which releases the TMJ and atlanto-occipital joint. To foster it you apply direct flexions of different sorts. The results are a relaxation throughout the entire body.

Yeah, I've heard that and sort of understand the rationale, but then I watch my mare, or any other horse in our herd, do the perfect pirouette and as far as I can tell, she's not chewing and swallowing while she does it.

Being from Texas originally (I now live in Saudi Arabia) I too have seen some good Western horses working to very high degrees of collection.  All on a loose rein....


Deb

[aramco_trainer]

Hi,

Baucher style is based on that each slightest movement of the hand gets a response not by pulling by just by opening ,rising the hand and opening and closing of the hand we let the horse finds it balance not by forcing him onto the bit, we also want lightness to the leg and response of displacing our weight on the horse. A true interprter of Baucher's riding has the horse playing with bit as if he is chewing a chewinggum not to be confused by nervous chopping on the bit.

The hackamore also works via pressure like a bit but in the hands of a bad handed rider can do just as much harm if not more than a snaffle in my opinion.

cheers
michael
 

[winnie]

I ride Winnie in an English Hackamore, eversince she had an ulcer under her tongue

I mainly use it for hacking out as when im schooling her she has learnt to evade the action by tilting her head, especially when we are attempting lateral work!! And boy does she lean on it when she's being lazy!!!
though when she is going well her whole presence changes and she becomes very soft, she does salivate even though she hasnt got a bit it!!!

i love it for hacking as it gives her mouth a rest!!!

good luck with the schooling in it... i will be really interested to hear your progress
 

sarah

[KarenRO]

I used a Dr. Cook bitless bridle on my Morgan mare about 3 years ago and did not have much success.  I did not like the way the bridle never completely released; in other words, there was also some pressure even when the reins were on the buckle.  This caused my mare to hold her head high in order to try to escape the pressue.  A regular short-shank hackamore, on the other hand, completely releases once the pressure on the reins is released.  

Does a bit really help to relax a horse and teach them to drive off their hindquarters?  I have my doubts.  I've seen too many folks here in the USA crank their horses in from the front and then jam their hindquarters towards the bit with heavy legs.  This may produce a nice looking frame but certainly nothing light or airy!

Bitless bridles are still not allowed in any schooling or recognized shows here although I bet that will change in the near future.

KarenRO

[aramco_trainer]

Hi Karen,

  Training a horse is above all feeling and trying, according to what you feel, to help the horse and not to force him.   It is rare to see a rider who is truly passionate about the horse and his training, taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation, and making this extraordinarily subtle work one of the dominant motivations of his life.Make the horse a companion and not a slave, you will see what extraordinary friend it is.

Just some words that explain the classical dressage aproach. def. no cranking and pushing we like to get there by lightness sothat ,once the horse is in a more advancend state goes just aswell in a snaffle ,a pelham or just by being ridden with a lead rope. Do it rough and at one stage nothing will stop the horse

cheers
michael

 

[KarenRO]

Hi Michael,

"...horse is in a more advancend state goes just aswell in a snaffle ,a pelham or just by being ridden with a lead rope. Do it rough and at one stage nothing will stop the horse."

Oh, how true!   I always fret when I go to a tack shop and see the severe bits hanging on the wall and really panic when I hear the salespeople advising people on which bit will provide more control.  I want to run up and say, listen, you and your need to find a good trainer, not a new bit!!

Isn't the Paso Fino breed trained in a bosal initially and then moves to a curb bit of some sort later in life?  The Paso Finos I've seen in photos always look relaxed through their jaws and pushing from the rear.

Slow, careful training is the key and in this age of instant gratification, many of our horses suffer needlessly.

KarenRO
 

[aramco_trainer]

Hi Karen ,

I could tell you alot of stuff about paso fino's if I knew as it is not my area of expertise I don't know. And yes I agree that it is a crime to see what some people use to stop their horse rather than learning how to ride

cheers
michael

[Elizabeth1]

I use a Dr Cook bitless bridle for hacking and some light schooling, but not sure to what level I could continue the schooling.  I found that a horse that had been ridden with a severe bit and a heavy hand was easier to ride bitless, because it stopped her worrying about her mouth and let her concentrate on my seat aids.  Apparently she needed a gag or a pelham to stop her.  When I rode I found her extremely light and responsive.

[aramco_trainer]

Hi Elizabeth,

Once a horse has lost it's faith in the riders hands it takes time and patience to make him /her trust a bit again that is for sure but nothing is impossible. But if your aim is just to hack and she goes wel for you I would keep it that way about the schooling just continue until you feel you cannot go any further or untill you think she will accept a snaffle again. It is mainly based on feel and following your instinct with your horse.

cheers
michael


 

[Flashback]

hear the salespeople advising people on which bit will provide more control

that it is a crime to see what some people use to stop their horse rather than learning how to ride

unfortunately this is something i see a lot of ...............  :(  :(

a nice little arab with plenty of expression was totally ruined after the bit was changed to an american gag with shanks the length of a football pitch!    he was never the same again ............... despite some very careful work by his new owner, just sooooooooo scared of his mouth.  went bitless in the end but is still fussy!

so many folk think changing the bit is the answer to all their prayers ........... that one particular bit will transform their horse into a GP/top sj/top xc etc ......... when in reality, they should look to their standard of riding/horse training level for their answers.

i too get angry when salespeople in saddlers dish out advice without even having seen the horse/rider combination in action, relying totally on the riders sometimes distorted point of view. makes me want to jump in and say something ......... and i usually do!!!!!!!!!  :blink:  

[aramco_trainer]

Hi ,
I always do if I see an anker hanging in the horses mouth and sometimes am not apreciated for my opinion lol