Linda Baia

[Heather]

For those of you who have enjoyed Muriel's participation here, I am sorry to say that our comments re the video of her trainer, were not well received and I have heard on the grapevine that she is no longer intending to post.

It seems that she does not believe that EE methods can  work with a horse like Linda, and that stronger methods are necessary. My own horses have been far from easy, and if I had written a training blog for any bar Coronel, would have made anything Linda does seem like minor incident!

I hate to see decent people being brainwashed by trainers- I was only having this discussion about another trainer with one of our saddle agents at the training day earlier this week. She has witnessed it at a yard where her horse was stabled for a year, and this foreign 'Classical' trainer is getting a strong following here now, the worst thing is that his students are all very intelligent people, whom you would not expect to be led into thinking that harsh treatment of horses is acceptable at some stages, in order to 'train' them.

It seems such a shame to lose Muriel, and I hope that many of you will pm her and persuade her to come back.

Heather

[TashaKat]

I'm so sorry to hear that :(  But we all have to make our own decisions at the time, no matter how wrong they may seem to others.  Hopefully she'll realise what everyone was saying was through respect, knowledge and care and will find her way back here again one day.  It is hard to take criticism especially when you're being pulled in two completely different directions.

I know from Saff that she's positively bloomed under a more EE focussed way of doing things.  My old trainer was good but she needed that little bit more and despite being an uber bossy, dominant mare with a mind of her own and a not-so-gentle start in life she has come on leaps and bounds with a less 'traditional' and heavy handed way of training.

Hopefully she'll come back one day and in the meantime good luck to you Muriel x

[AnaE]

... I never got to see the video ...

I’m sorry to see Linda Baia go away I’ve always found her reports and overall participation in the EE very interesting... hope this is just a temporary decision!

There are very different approaches on riding/schooling horses methods and even already knowing what EE stands for, one of the good things of EE is having the chance to discuss them in a open way!

Hope to see you soon!

[luckyrider]

Many of us with very young or especially quirky horses get to the point where we need help on the ground and on a regular basis -- I have been through the same with Amicus.  It's great to be able to come here and get feedback on what we're doing, but really there is sometimes no substitute to having somebody come see the horse and teach us how to deal with situations as they arise.

Muriel has made her choice of trainer and he is a showjumper, and Italian, and a man, and if that statement sounds as if it is loaded with constructions, well in a way it is.  We cannot expect him to be fully versed in EE philosophy except perhaps in the most basic way, ie he does feel he respects the horse and wants to ride in harmony and balance.  He may be going about it in a way we are not used to... but to his enduring credit I understand he is open to ciriticism from a bunch of people whose credentials he has probably not had the chance to assess for himself... and that says something.

Muriel's blog has been very enriching for me, what with Linda seeming in many ways like Amicus, and with Muriel, like me, living abroad in a place where you may struggle to get proper training.

I know we all respect Muriel and like her, and love hearing how her journey progresses with Linda, and I do hope she comes back soon to update us...

Come back Muriel!!! We promise to be nice!!!

[Cabruze]

I'm really dismayed, but not surprised, that Muriel has decided not to post here anymore.

I agree with Luckyrider.

And I shall really miss Muriel's openminded and intelligent contribution.

 :'(

If you read this Muriel I'd just like to say thank you - I've not only enjoyed your diary but also learned a huge amount from it. We need more contributions like yours - not less!  The moment when we think there is only one correct way and that we have nothing to learn from exporing others is the moment we stop learning IMO.  :'(

[shoveltrash]

If you read this Muriel I'd just like to say thank you - I've not only enjoyed your diary but also learned a huge amount from it. We need more contributions like yours - not less!  The moment when we think there is only one correct way and that we have nothing to learn from exporing others is the moment we stop learning IMO.

Jane i'm quoting you, because i could not have said it better........
Muriel you will be truly missed  :'(

[Heather]

Hi Jane,

I have never said there is only one correct way to train a horse, but in any method, humane treatment of the horse is surely of great importance?  I dont know if you saw the video, but if you feel the way in which Linda was being ridden was of interest, and you saw nothing detrimental in it, and you would like to 'explore' riding and training your horse in that way- it is entirely your choice.

I myself, have treated horses in a less humane way in the past, as a result of following orders from people I considered to be far more expert than me. But I learned my lesson along the way, that not all 'experts' are what they claim to be, and to listen to my own 'inner judgement' when it comes to what is right or wrong treatment for a horse.

The horse when born, does not think to himself 'I want to be a dressage horse', or 'I want to be a showjumper'. He wants just to be a horse. It is the human that imposes which discipline or career the horse ends up in, he has no choice. Therefore, we are on his back, only by his good grace, and it behoves us to treat him with the respect and care that we would hopefully treat any other species.

I am certain that if horses could cry out, as can a dog, that they would often do so in pain, at some of the 'training' methods, seen as acceptable by riders.

If some of the other members reacted at the video, it was because it doesnt take someone of my level,  to know that sawing at a horse's mouth is not good horsemanship. It was one of the first things I learnt as a child, that the hands can make, or destroy a horse's mouth, and as such, developing good hands was of paramount importance.

I apologise to Muriel if we have upset her, but the video was put up for public consumption. I think perhaps in future, as I appear to have upset others, by the replies here- and for which I also apologise - I will refrain from comment on any videos unless they are ones that I can truly be positive in my reactions.

Some will, conversely, feel that this will prevent them from learning to discern good riding/training from bad, which has always been my intention- to educate the eye to what is correct or incorrect, but I think perhaps it is better if, in future, I keep my views to myself.

Heather

[Bejay]

Heather, PLEASE add a caveat to that, to the effect that you will comment, no matter how awful the riding, if you are specifically asked to.

I was just about to buy a video camera, for exactly this purpose. I am only too grateful for anyone to bother to take an interest, and don't mind how critical anyone is, if it helps me to get to where I, and my horses,long for me to be.

Pats on the back may be very nice and comforting, but they don't get you any further forward, just leave you standing where you are now.

[Heather]

Hi Helen,

Caveat added. 

Heather

[chapsi]

I, for one, can relate only too well to Muriel's situation. The cultural context is similar in many ways.
I live in a latin country, where manhood controls the traditional core of our equitation.
No doubt, I have my horse's best interest at heart, but I have to cope and to survive in my part of the world the best I can. And such drives me away from my own views on horsemanship... as I'm not a fully fledged, independant horse person, I have to rely on trainers and their approaches.
Consequentely, I've been making many concessions and I've had times to abdicate on my own views, when compromisses are not always viable.
But, at the end of the day, I'm forever finding the best solutions that will work for me, together with my horse. What I'm trying to say is that things aren't so linear, but circumstances determine things around us.

Muriel's log will be missed, especially by me. Whenever I read it, I felt better; I felt I wasn't alone in my predicament.
Needless to say, Muriel's unique sense of humour and wit will be missed.
I wish you well Muriel. All the best for the future.

[sueblue]

Didn't see the video  so cannot make any judgement one way or the other, Muriel but sorry that you are leaving.
All best wishes
Susan

[Flashback]

how sad  :'(

i did not see the video so cannot and will not comment 

however, i have enjoyed reading Muriels posts, she comes across as a caring and insightful owner, wanting the best for her horse, as do we all. 

the danger of video is, IMO, that it is not always representational of the whole picture, like a photo is it but a snapshot in time .... however, if one posts a video and requests critique one must be prepared for the result .... either that or abide by what my Nan used to say *if you think you might not like the answer, dont ask the question!*

sometimes the written word can be misconstrued, one cannot see the body language of the *speaker*, the *tone* of the words can sometimes come across very differently in the written word creating unintentional anguish to whom it is directed, and the language may not be that persons mother tongue, creating a further hurdle.

im sure that no-one on here is intentionally harsh in judgement, though perhaps sometimes we may appear to some to over-react.

what must be uppermost in everyones minds is that we all have the right to choose the path we tread .... we are free to leave the path and explore another direction. we are also free to return to the original path should we so choose .... sometimes it is only by walking away do we then see the need to return.

Muriel honey, if you read this, please know you will be welcome back, your unique style and wit will be sorely missed  :'(

[sueblue]

 

the danger of video is, IMO, that it is not always representational of the whole picture, like a photo is it but a snapshot in time ....
im sure that no-one on here is intentionally harsh in judgement, though perhaps sometimes we may appear to some to over-react.


Muriel honey, if you read this, please know you will be welcome back, your unique style and wit will be sorely missed  :'(

I also would like to say IMO  that critism should be constructive and not derogatory, to spread the enlightened word is not to make people back off, but to accept that there might be a better way.
Otherwise what is the point??

[1 morejump]

  Come back Muriel!!!!

I never saw the video so I don't think I should try to "help" too much but I am sorry you are leaving Muriel, please stay!

[Heather]

If you read my comments on the other thread, Muriel had wanted an honest appraisal of her horse's potential. I commented that Linda has a very considerable amount of potential, that she is a horse that could go far in the right hands. Ann, The video was several minutes, plenty long enough for me to see that the training was not going to progress along the right lines to develop the mares very considerable potential.

This is what Muriel asked:

Gigi is "bonkers rider" he has ridden horses for the last 50 years, he rode as a jockey in palio  , he show-jumped. He did many stages with Philippe Karl, who is one of "his masters".
He is NOT a Dressage rider.

It would be great to give some intelligent feedback, ( not on Gigi position) about Linda. what do you like in her? what you less like? HOW would you train her?

I gave my response that I would not train her in the way that Gigi was, and my reasons why.

 Had he just been a jockey in the Palio and a show jumper (although the D'Inzeo brothers who were OLympic champions in my youth, were two of the finest show jumping riders I have ever seen, to this day) but because Gigi had trained with PK, I suppose I was expecting to see far more finesse in both riding and training, especially the hands, and reacted with shock.

In future, if asked a question such as the above, I should have responded thus:

" I would not be running her round out of her natural rhythm, with her head cranked to the inside. This will force her through her outside shoulder, which will then require correction, which has been caused by the action of the inside rein. I would work her long and low for the first ten minutes, loosening up her back, to encourage her to step through and swing her ribcage, and take the rein lightly forwards and down. I would never pull back with my hands, and ensure that the contact was light, but varied.

I would also have taught her some lateral work in walk by this stage, in order to supple her laterally as well as longitudinally. I would start to bring her more 'up' in front, but by only small raising of the hands, in a quick upward motion, always backed up by the legs, and carry this through with lots of transitions. Walk, halt, walk, halt, trot, walk, trot walk, and as she starts to become more balanced, trot halt and halt trot.

As soon as she learnt shoulder in, I would then also ask for rein back, and start to introduce rein back to halt, rein back  and walk on again. Ultimately, halt, reinback, trot, immediately. Nothing better to get the horse more back  on the hocks, and also develop more collection and impulsion. True extension can only come from collection, so I would not walk on lengthening the strides until this stage had been reached, as a horse like Linda would have natural ability to extend.

I would not work at all on the canter in the school until this stage had been reached, canter in a straight line out hacking yes, and through the building up of impulsion through transitions, wait until she offered walk to canter in the school. This usually happens when the horse is asked for trot from halt or rein back, but has built up so much contained power, that they offer canter instead. Once this happens, you can start to ask for canter from a very slow collected walk, and do not canter on for more strides than she is capable of maintaining an uphill jump, before coming back to trot for a few strides, fewer the better, and back to walk for a couple of strides, before asking for canter again from walk.

In this way, the horse will never have a problem with running into canter from trot, and immediately learning to canter on the forehand. This is a problem that can so easily be avoided!

And this would be the stage I would be aiming for, to be consolidated for a few months, before introducing lateral work in trot."


I apologise for jumping on Gigi, Muriel, and in future, will try to temper my Celtic tendency to shoot my mouth off, instead of taking a deep breath and writing a report once I had cooled down.

Heather