Leading problems (following on from Stressed Youngster thread in problem horses)

[Alice]

Following on from my stressed youngster /seperation anxiety thread in Problem Horses.

I have been using clicker for the last couple of weeks or so (she was already familiar with it) to help with leading to field (she was stopping when i stopped etc), feet and backing up in stable. She is generally much calmer and I have been trying to take her up to the edge of the menage and back (only a short distance but out of sight of other horses) and also take her out of the field first. With the walk to the menage i feel there is an element of stress but alot of is also that she just doesnt want to go and is asserting herself. Same with coming out of the field - she starts playing up whilst still in the field and in full sight of other horses. Clicker ceases to be of enough importance to her in these situations so I am wondering what else i can do. I stop and get her to stop with me if she starts to rush or jump around but she is starting to ignore me. She understands the concept perfectly and does it well most of the time but on these occasions is getting herself in such a paddy about it that she runs round me in circles, and when that doesnt work she starts threatening (pins ears back - problem is she will see her threats through if she gets frustrated enough so its difficult to ignore!).

I have been using carrots and apples but maybe i need to change treats to something different to get her interest back in more challenging situations? Though this wouldnt help for long i imagine?

edited to add: I tried again a little while ago using some of her usual feed instead of carrots/apples and got more attention. However this was with her field buddies in view. There is still an issue with getting her to go out of sight of them.

Any help much appreciated
thanks
alice

[Susan C]

hi alice,
really quick reply but what are you leading her in?! I have a TB which had huge separation issues when he first came out of NH training (they do everything as a string there!!) and got to the point where he was downright dangerous.  He reared up and came down on my Mum which was a step too far.  I invested in a be-nice halter and took time to introduce it to him properly so he knew how it worked, but made sure i was very quick to release the pressure as soon as he behaved.  It took about a month of consistent use but now we rarely use it - but it has proven to be a very handy piece of kit. 

He is also clicker trained and I extended the target training so that he came to my hand as a target.  It is usually enough to get his attention in the event of a major hissy fit and also very handy for catching them!

We also used homeopathic remedies for him off hand i think it was impatiens i used but will check tomorrow and it really helped.

Hope that is of some help.  Sometimes firm consistent handling is required to prevent things getting out of hand and accidents happening!!

HTH's

[Becky holden]

Hi Alice,
This can be a difficult one when horses become to stressed to focus on the clicks and treats. Like sue c has already mentioned its a case of firm consistent handling and it would be wise to look in to someway to gain a little more control. I always like to use a cavesson and lunge line to give that extra length when they do start to play up.
With separation anxiety the reward of going back to their friends is much more of a reward than you clicking and treating her,. so  I would  do some clicker training sessions in the field. You need to find out how far you can lead her away from the group before you get a reaction, click and treat each step at first, then turn her to walk back to her friends before you get any negative reaction and repeat the process slowly building her confidence. You want her to realise that she isn't going far away from the herd and will be allowed to go back again. She will become upset at times but if you just stand quiet and click the second she stops then walk her back to the group she will become more confident and willing to go a little further next time. Always click when you are walking away from the herd as walking back is reinforcing in its self. You can also do the same walking to the school, remember with clicker training to break your end result up in to little stages. Four or five short sessions is far better than one long one. Also be ready to quit whilst you are a head!
Obviously do this as a training exercise when you need to bring her out of the field maybe somebody could lead one of her friends in to.
Hope this helps!

Becky

[Alice]

Becky & Susan

Thanks alot for the advice - I wasnt able to try anything else out until last night /today as we had the hunt meet at the yard on saturday (excellent when you have an already stressed horse  :  ) so i gave up over the weekend. I was using a bridle for leading but i think maybe that was actually winding her up more as although sh doesnt mind it, it isnt something she is so used to,  so i have dug out my dually halter and we made it up to the school and back this morning without her trying to run round meso thats good (i was using a lunge line anyway). As you say, i need that element of control as well as the CT.  She is still stressed at times anyway but i can now see there is also an element of trantrums going on too which i have to nip in the bud (she is charging around the field the minute one horse comes in - and last night it wasnt even her 'buddy' who was still out there with her).

I have been using the Impatiens and also started putting some Tranquil in her feed (valerian based) that i found. So maybe one or both is also helping.

Part of the problem of course is me as its a vicious circle, she is stressing me out, which makes her worse. So i have to work on that too !

alice