Ideas For Schooling A Very Heavy Cob!

[Emily]

Hello everyone

I am currently helping with schooling a horse on behalf of a friend until the horse gets a new loaner. He is a 15.2hh heavy, heavy cob! He is about 12 years old and is a real sweetheart! He tries his best at everything and aims to please, but he is not the most intelligent (he told an animal communicator that he knew he wasn't the brightest penny   :lol: bless!). He tends to panic if he thinks he is doing something wrong and will try to do everything he knows at once in an effort to please.

His previous rider taught him a lot about moving away from the leg, she did LOTS of leg yield and turn on the forehand. But he now will not bend around the leg, he just runs away from it and panics.

He also has a tendency to bury his head on the floor, or between his knees - in a "fake" outline. Because of the shae of his neck he finds it very easy to hold his neck in a "correct" shape whilst not truely working. When he does this he tends to then back off the leg and go further onto his forehand.

He also really struggles in canter and tends to motorbike round the corners then collapse in a heap into trot. He also has a LOT of weight to lose after an extended time off with a leg injury (which was then exacerbated by this excessive weight!!) although you can see, even from the two pictures below he is losing it already

So, so far, i have been working on just getting him going forwards, rather than bothering with head carriage. i have been doing lots of shoulder fore, trying to get the big shoulders of his under control. But as soon as he tries to bend he loses all energy. He is currently being ridden in a wide barrell myler, but is used to a pelham. However I feel that the pelham encourages him to bury his neck  :unsure:

So.....any ideas on where to go now? THere is so much to try and improve and its hard to know where to start! The other problem I have is that he is a big horse and i am a small person  :lol: so I havent got the strength to hold him together...so need him to learn to do it himself.

Here are a coupel of pictures so you can see the size problem I have!

[Rosemary]

Hi,

Apart from saying I think he's lovely, I probably can't help much apart from suggesting that, if he is not very bright, you teach him just one little thing each time you ride?

It might not seem like you are making much progress, but perhaps it would stop him panicking if he feels sure about each small thing he learns.

Have you tried doing any groundwork with him (TTeam types exercises, perhaps) or long reining?  Two of our horses really enjoy being long reined out round our hacks, it helps to get them fit and encourages them to be forward going.  We re lucky, though, in as much as we don't have to do any roadwork if we don't want to.

Is there something he enjoys doing, perhaps pole work?  It sounds like he is a bit of a worrier, and needs to start enjoying what he does (and feeling that he is good at it  B) )

Rosemary x

[Three]

Ooooh, he's lurvely.

I have a heavy cob too - his shape also drove him nose downwards and in straight lines - it's like turning a tank tbh!! BUT!! Lots of proper schooling, bending and learning to work properly from behind (instead of using his huge front end to drag the rest along! ) has worked wonders!

We also use a Myler (big tongue to keep the big neck company!) but did use a pelham for a while and it did help; but if it's working in the Myler I'd stick with it for now.

Canter is only just coming. We've kept well away from it as he just didn't have the balance or self carriage to cope.

It sounds to me like you're on the right lines but I have to say I'd never have got anywhere with my chap if I didn't have a fabulous instructor to work with him - and me!!

[Emily]

Thank you Rosemary and "Three" (!!).

He has done some ground work, but this was parelli based stuff which actually seems to have had a bad effect on his schooling, as it encourages the spinning around on your forehand thing which just drives all his weight onto those big front tree trunks of his!!! We have been lunging him in a pessoa, which he really seems to enjoy bizarely (you cna almost hear my pony groan when she is presented with a roller!) I have a suspicion its because he can't really get it wrong - so really likes being right all the time   Once again..bless him!

Don't know much about TTeam - anywhere where I can look online for some more info?

The long lining sounds like a good idea, would have to be in the confines of the arena I'm afraid though as most of our hacking is on roads.

I have recently introduced poles and jumping to him...he seems to really enjoy it, but once he is cantering or trotting towards a jump...he can't change his stride...and tends to just plough through them, sending poles flying if he gets it wrong  :lol: I think pole work would really help, but any ideas to help him over the poles rather than through them would be lovely!!
 

[Heather]

Welcome Rosemary and Three!

Emily, the pelham can help you prevent him from burying his neck.Coronel our PRE stallion, had been ridden far too 'deep' in Spain,  but with the curb, especially a mild elastic one, you can lift your hands quite sharply, but never roughly and at the same time, send him forward with the legs.

Lots of rein back will help get him up off his shoulders, rein back to walk to begin with, but then rein back to trot. Oliveira used to call the shoulder in 'the aspirin of equitation'. I reckon rein back is therefore 'the paracetemol of equitation'!


Heather

[Emily]

Heather, how do you start schooling a horse to do rein back? Just had a quick flick through your book and can't seem to find it anywhere - pleas epoint me in the right direction if it is there somewhere!! I have observed other people doing it, but am not convinced their way was the "right" way (seemed to be very forceful - pull on the reins until they step back was the basic idea :ouch:  :ouch: ), and have never tried it myself. He is pretty unresponsive on the ground to an aid for going back - either voice or touch, he is such a big bruiser he just uses his weight to go through you. Whilst he isn't very bright he does know he has his size on his side.

I so want him to reach his potential! When he gets excited about something he shows off what he can really do. The power from a bottom the size of his is incredible! Whilst I know he will never make a grand prix horse because of his shape, I hope he will get to novice level

[ros]

Just before Heather comes back on the rein-back, I'd like to say it doesn't actually sound as if he's "not very bright" - rather the reverse!  With a horse like that it's no use scolding, you just praise every little try until he stops worrying and panicking, and starts to work things out calmly instead    He's just desperate to please.

If he loses some of that - er, blubber    - he'll probably find the gymnastic side of things a whole lot easier too.

And at the end of the day, we have to work with what we've got and accept that all horses have their limitations, physically and mentally.  If he does what he's capable of beautifully and happily, it's FAR better than making him do what he's not so good at badly   .

And I think he's gorgeous too  

[Mossy]

Do you use your pelham with one or two reins? To get the lifting and softening effect you really need two reins. My highland is a mini version of your boy and will lean and bury something awful if he has a ghost of a chance but double reins work wonders.  

[Susie xx]

Hi,
I also love your cob. I am sure he thinks he is n't bright but is undermining his abilities and potential. My 2 yr old colt will look like him when he has finished growing.
I would suggest pole work,
http://www.lindatellingtonjones.com/whyTTEAM.shtml
as in TTraining labrinyth, long reining.

 I think he might be a real candidate for clicker training, especially as he likes praise and reward based training.
http://www.theclickercenter.com/
http://user.cavenet.com/parkerk/default.htm

For an explanation of teaching back up on the ground and ridden
http://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/
go to Training Tips Q&A

Whilst I agree a pelham is a very useful tool, I like the bitless stability side pull for everyday and in hand. Easy to wash, useful as a bridle or lead halter and not expensive either and Sue Knott who is the proprietor is full of info and very helpful.
http://www.frontierranchtack.com/

Do you have a driving or carriage club near you?
It may be fun to visit and get some tips on long reining from local members and the basics of driving are to have a horse confident going forwards.

I lead mine over and under anything at hand, plastic sheeting, washing lines, boards etc. Really good for Handy Pony classes later and it is helpful to have horses who do not mind their riders carrying an umbrella when it is very sunny or raining. Everything that can be praised is praised, it is fun to continually thank the horse for trying, and funny to watch them holding kite strings unbothered by swirling tails, wind noise and crashing plastic kites! Nothing is scary, no need to panic, bravery gets treats.


Good luck with the schooling, are you sure this lovely cob has to be loaned out, you look like you are enjoying his company.
Love Susie xx
 

[Heather]

Hi Susie,

I dont think that the bitless would be ideal in this case, and there is a lot of poll pressure from the sidepull effect of some of these bitless bridles. A pelham with two reins, ALWAYS with two reins!!-correctly used, will correct this deep head carriage, quickly and easily and promote correct jaw flexion. For me, the flexion of the lower jaw is an absolute prerequisite to lightness and self carriage, and with a hefty chap such as this, I feel that he will take the chance to lean more heavily on the bitless.

I tried a Bob Cook one once on our heavy ID gelding and he was like a ton of bricks, went straight onto his forehand. In the pelham, he is very light, and is just starting piaffe.

But I agree absolutely with the clicker training, and by the looks of him, he is the equine equivalent of a Labrador!! :lol:

Heather

[Cobstar]

Emily

What a handsome boy.  He looks very like my heavyweight cob, who is blue and white too.  She's a mare, very bright and very opinionated.  I thought I'd retired her but she's looking so good now she's out 24/7 that I might bring her back into work  

It took time but like Three's cob, my mare turned into a very nice riding horse.  We managed to do this with a loose ring snaffle (her preferred bit is a thinnish sweet iron snaffle with a copper lozenge).  She came from a riding school and had been ridden in a gag snaffle - I was told only to hack her out with the gag rein attached but soon got her hacking out safely with just an ordinary snaffle (to lean and pull she had to have something to lean or pull against, so I had to ride correctly too  :lol: )

As Three said, correct schooling, lots of transitions, bends, circles etc + lunging to help her find her own balance and carry herself.  Also making sure that she had to carry herself all the time and didn't try to prop herself up on my hands.

Canter is never going to be her best gait but lunging (without a rider) to get her to carry herself, polework (canter poles as well) and grid work, really improved the canter.

My girl is probably the horse of a lifetime. Full of life, very onward bound, and a total joy to own.

[Tiber]

I was going to say try two reins as well. It has helped with my girl, who has the ability to be incredibly heavy in front if she wants.

[Susie xx]

I dont think that the bitless would be ideal in this case, and there is a lot of poll pressure from the sidepull effect of some of these bitless bridles. A pelham with two reins, ALWAYS with two reins!!-correctly used, will correct this deep head carriage, quickly and easily and promote correct jaw flexion. For me, the flexion of the lower jaw is an absolute prerequisite to lightness and self carriage, and with a hefty chap such as this, I feel that he will take the chance to lean more heavily on the bitless.

I am sure Heather is right, she has a lot of experience with schooling all types of horses. Certainly a double rein pelham  under supervision whilst schooling should be something for me and Daniel to try in the future.

I do find that leading a kind heavy cob who has no idea of his own strength can be resolved with the Be Nice type halters and the Bitless bridles, I tried a cross under Dr.Cooks on our 13.1hh cob and he prefers the sidepull.

 I also found that when a novice child rider rode in a headcollar the pony got a sore nose, any type of bit would have had dire consequences in her hands.  If she finds the time and interest to ride regularly, have lessons and take responsibility for her hands she will eventually be allowed a bit.
My now retired TB liked his losenge bit but was equally happy in a headcollar. Although he always looked better when ridden by Jo Morris with her dressage training because he could respond easily to her clear signals.
Jo had trained with Mrs. Molly Siveright at Talland and then learned so much more from excellent trainers throughout her career riding and training event horses. Anglesea is lucky to have her and my riding abilities get weaker without constant correction. It is so easy to form bad habits with age as an excuse for finding the comfort zone.
My point being, if Emily cannot go to Heather, find someone recommended to watch over whilst you school at least occaisionally to keep on track, your photos look good though. It will always be Think/Head, then seat/Leg long before hand.
Eventually your cob will find his balance and confidence, how about a few days out drag hunting, after making some holes for the rest of the field in the first hedges he may find he really enjoys jumping?
I rode in a double bridle on my 14hh cob pony when I was 13 years old and had a pelham, mostly used with D roundings on my 14.2hh ArabxWelsh pony.
There is always a solution and great advice here.
Susie xx

[Heather]

Thats just it Susie though- sounds like you are a similar vintage to me :lol: - when we were young, to be told that you had 'light hands' was the highest accolade we could aspire to, and if our ponies went lightly in a double or pelham, we were encouraged to use one, because we needed so little hand to achieve a result.

I honestly feel that the death knell was sounded when competition dressage became the 'in thing' and the snaffle became the be all and end all of riding.

But I find that people who have an 'enlightened' and seeking mind, dont use the pelham incorrectly- they achieve a much lighter result with so little and then tend not to use too much hand, whereas often the snaffle encourages it.

Heather

[Cabruze]

But I agree absolutely with the clicker training, and by the looks of him, he is the equine equivalent of a Labrador!! :lol:

Heather

This is not Jane but Millie Labrador and I felt I had to put pay to "labradors only have one brain cell" stereotype.

I can clear cross country jumps that so called intelligent TB's refuse! I regularly mount successful raids on the feed store and everyone thinks Annie the Retriever did it (now she is thick!   )  I quite often convince my mum that dad hasn't fed me and get more grub.  I also act as a baby alarm for newborn Beatrice when she cries and her mum is busy yacking at the yard.  My piaffe is better than any horse on the yard!  .... and how many computer literate dogs do you know?

Do I look stupid?!