Cair Vs Flocking In Wintec Saddles

[Casey76]

It is not without a lot of regret that I am realising I can't use my Fhoenix for everything I do with Pinto.

Oh I still use it for all dressage work and schooling, as well as hacking, but i can't balance in it in a forward seat for jumping, and it allows too much communication between my seat and Pinto for MES, and it is just not stable enough (and still allow Pinto to breath) for horseball, so I've been borrowing my friends Wintec 2000 with CAIR.  Pinto works nicely in it, and doesn't run away when he sees it coming (which he did with his old treed saddle).

Plus I just found out they come in brown  can't have brown everything else and a black saddle lol.

Anyway, has anyone ridden in both the CAIR and flocked version of the same saddle to give me any idea of the difference?

I know some horses don't like the feel of CAIR, but Pinto has never 'said" anything.

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

[Casey76]

whoops! sorry, I wasn't taking note of where I was posting  :blush:

thanks for moving

[chapsi]

I've never ridden in CAIR, but I recall years ago a long thread about this on NR. The negative feedback on CAIR was so extensive that I made my mind to go for a Wintec with traditional flocking.

[1 morejump]

I currently have a GP Wintec with Cair pannels.  I like it because you don't have to bother with reflocking, and its adjustable, but you do have to watch out for deflation.  I have heard about horses who did get back problems because one of the pannels deflated some and the rider didn't notice.  If it does deflate and is still under the warente then I believe they will replace it.  If it isn't covered you have to pay.  When I get off I like to check the sweat pattern and it is pretty even.

If you stay on top of that I think they are nice, I am still holding out for a Fhoenix  but the wintec is nice.    

[JulesP]

There isn't anything in the CAIR panals to deflate! It isn't air like Flair. The CAIR panels are softcell foam. They are actually harder to fit to a horse as the saddler has to shove flocking around the CAIR panels.

Saying that I didn't have any problems with CAIR. I did ride in a Isabel Wintec that was flocked and then the leather Isabel with CAIR. Can't honestly say I noticed much difference between the two. Couldn't get either to fit the horse.  

[Claire]

according to CAIR, it is air:

http://www.cairpanelsystem.com/whatIsCAIR/index.htm

[Fiona]

Air is captured at atmospheric pressure in an open-celled foam and sealed in the Air Panel.

From the link above - it's not a bag full of air like FLAIR, rather a sponge which is sealed  so the air can't be squeezed out.  So you are both right  

Fiona

[Doc]

Wintec/Bates are the largest selling saddle in Australia - by a large margin.  Here in Australlia there have been some really dissatisfied customers with CAIR.  Some of it related to the move to offshore manufacturing a number of years ago.  The quality control was poor.

There were instances where panels were missing, panels were irregulars sizes (different panels in the same saddle), the panels went rock hard or had to be replaced.

The quality control issues seem to have been addressed and the complaints have lessened.  

I can't get past the fact that CAIR is a gimmick to increase margin on a volume product that has a low price point.  A correctly flocked saddle using quality wool flocking should have the advantage over any other saddle.

In my mind the big question would be "why bother"?  AND they cost more than the traditionally flocked saddle.

[shiralee]

I have always chosen flocking over Cair, because I like to fit the saddle a bit wide and use a cushy half pad anyway.  To my mind that kind of defeats the purpose of buying Cair as it won't be against the horse's back anyway.  I'd rather spend the extra dollars on a good pad.  

Doc, I think Wintec is now the biggest selling saddle worldwide.  Cair has been around for a few years now, and is still very popular.  Over here in Australia at least, I think you'd find that Cair outsells flocked versions.  That says something (I don't know what  though :P ), despite the complaints we sometimes read.   On the Australian forums whenever anyone asks about Cair, you will always hear a dozen or so people say how much they hate it, but it's still a very big seller and a lot of people also chime in to say how much they prefer it and have had no problems.  

I think it is pretty widely accepted though, that Flair panels are superior to Cair.  
 

[shiralee]

Oh - I think "deflate" is just the wrong term.  Yes, Cair is a type of foam panel, and very occasionally you do hear of them flattening, as foam can sometimes do.  I don't know what their typical lifespan is though.  

[Torsornin]

I personally hate the cair panels, And from some reading (and personal experience) I can tell you they have a tendency to rock.

[baggywrinkle]

I have 2 Bates(for me the COMFYest I've ever tried), which come with cair as standard, one a GP , the other a Caprilli Dressage(has a flatter 'classic' seat and minimal blocking), and also a Wintec2000 that's flocked. I have 2 big horses, fit enough for me and not fat, and the IDx has the curvier back, and takes a MW gullet, tne TBxShire(MN gullet) has a higher wither with a longitudinally flatter back running from there. Neither is extreem in shape but represents 2 types of middlin' horse. I've found the cair fine for the flatter(longit...) back, but they need the flocking adjusted (It CAN be added easily, esp. if you unscrew everything for the fitter). The flocked Wintec2000 is more suitable for the curvier back to start with. As I got it for the Shire-x whan she was a youngster, it was 'flattened' for her. Now the older IDx has it , my fitter sculpted it to her, taking OUT lots of flocking, and the result is a wrap-around-sink-into feel even OH noticed and remarked upon.
I have now looked at and ordered to try a Collegiate leather flocked(as standard) dressage for the older IDx. These (with the gullet system) are leather Wintecs - same trees. So I'm hoping to buy this for her, and along the line have it further 'sculpted'. She does seem to get along very well with the softer tree. The leather is the same high quality as the Bates, so I'm very hopeful of comfort for me too!

One thing I MUST point out to folks who have changeable gullet saddles......you DO have to have the flocking adjusted - EVEN with cair - over the fork area, as the flocking there compacts with use. Just using a narrower gullet will alter the angle of the fork, introducing pressure points at the tips. Use the gullet that best matches the shoulder angle Where It Sits.....sometimes this match is best seen sitting in the saddle. While waiting for the saddler to restuff the area, fold a soft handtowel and use like a wither pad. The Wintec instructions, which I lost long ago! , do tell you this.
(Also warn the fitter to be careful with a metal belly-iron if flocking over/around cair pads! Don't want to pierce the outer)
 

[Casey76]

Thanks everyone.

At the weekend I actually bought the saddle (it has CAIR, my tackshop didn't do flocked Wintecs   )  I actually only went to price them, then I saw this one had an incorrect price tag on   which made it 300CHF cheaper than it should have been   So I whisked it out of the shop asap    

I had the YO check the fit - he checks all the saddles for the school horses (no saddle fitters round here), and said it was good.  I bought an extra gullet (a wider one) for the summer too, just in case.

As I'll only be using it occasionally we shouldn't have any problems

[klebert]

At the weekend I actually bought the saddle (it has CAIR, my tackshop didn't do flocked Wintecs   )

Hi Casey!

Funny you say that, as I had exactly the same comment from the tack shop here in Jersey!! I had to get them to order me a flocked Wintec Wide in and there was a real delay as the stockist in England didn't have a flocked one either!!  :blink:

I went for a wintec wide as I just couldn't get my hips to stretch wide enough with the FFA plus    

[ChrissieW]

I currently have a Bates Cair Dressage and a flocked GP Wintec.     I have to say I like the feel of the Cair Dressage, but this could be because I prefer riding in the dressage than the GP anyway.

I have used Wintec/Bates saddles for the last 10 years or so and haven't had any major problems in that time, flocked or with Cair.