Running Away On The Lunge

[mrsmurchin]

As the title suggests, my horse just cannot stay calm on the lunge.  I was lunging her last night, all was well in the walk, calmly walking around on both reins, then, as normal she breaks into the trot (without me asking) but can't stay in it, breaks into canter and actually tried jumping out of the school twice last night.  I can always stop her with a point of the finger at her HQ, so I'm wondering if she is picking something up from my body language that is making her want to 'escape'.

She has also been running away in the trot under saddle, the last time I rode her, about 2 weeks ago (i've been away so haven't been able to get back on) she couldn't stay in the trot and kept breaking into canter.

She has only just been brought back into work after 2-3 months off for a kick to the hock.  I absolutely HATE lunging as I don't think its good for them mentally, but she lost a lot of muscle condition being on box rest, so I'm reluctant to ride her until she has gained some topline again.

I didn't have any gadgets on her last night as I don't own any.  A physio did suggest a Pessoa before her injury, but I still haven't made my mind up about them.  Thinking about it, I did use a roller last night which I don't normally use (intended to long line but it all went pear shaped), so maybe there's a problem with her back?

I am starting to feel quite desperate now as the confidence I had been gaining is being slowly eroded away (my last horse completely destroyed it).  If anyone has experienced this (running away on the lunge and under saddle), how did you overcome it? Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

Elaine.

[nix]

Hi Elaine

Has your physio assured you that she's no longer in any discomfort and have you had her back checked, it does sound as though she's possibly anticipating pain. Have you had her saddle checked too? If she's changed shape a lot while she's been off work then fit would be an issue.

Barring the above, I would suggest trying long reining instead of lunging. You have a lot more directional control with two reins which might help keep her in walk.

Good luck and let us know how you get on

[mrsmurchin]

I haven't had the physio out yet, need to get time off work to arrange the appointment (next week).  My saddle is the dressage SBS, but I'm still not 100% sure about how I should be padding it, I'm currently using the Stephens sheepskin half pad.  I think she has atrophied behind her shoulder but I'm not sure as she is white there, its really hard to see.  The last time I rode I checked the clearance over the wither, I could get 2 fingers in up to the 2nd joint, then it got tight.  Is this correct?  She is short coupled with a slight dip to her back just after the withers (sometimes looks croup high).  Saddles are such a minefield!

Elaine

[shoveltrash]

Elaine - as said, rule out physical discomfort first (topline soreness to palpation?).  i read with interest where you said you 'point a finger at her HQ' to stop your horse.....which would do the opposite in my opinion.  
horses have definite "drive zones" & "stop zones" - and body language has everything to do with it!  watching horses intereact in the pasture gives insight into this - Alpha 'drives' by 'pushing' (pinning ears, whatever) from behind the shoulder - the drive zone.  Alpha stops or turns other horse by moving in front of the shoulder.
sorry to run off with that.....but you may be unconsciously (at lunge) driving your mare without realizing it.  try a very relaxed stance, staying just behind your horse's shoulder at all times - step in front of the shoulder turning towards her to deliver a "half halt" (strength of body language here depends on how much 'halt' you want) to slow her or stop her.
i have a very sensitive gelding who i have to be very careful with when lungeing...indirect eye contact, VERY relaxed body language...otherwise he gets very tense & 'runs off' on the lunge.
someone once said to me "your horse is your mirror" - meaning that he/she will reflect your emotional state of tension or relaxation.  they pick up on a LOT.
i'd break it down under saddle, staying VERY relaxed....when she runs off at trot, try turning onto a circle (if nothing else seems to work), and when she slows down REWARD her and stop.  short sessions with definite rewards for good behavior.
it pays off in the long run, even if your riding session ends after only 10 minutes -- this applies to lungeing as well.
with all of this said (and i said alot!  so sorry......), i am not an "expert" per se, but have experienced the same problems with my current riding horse, and am communicating what worked for me.
  good luck and keep us posted
Trish

[OlavS]

My mare gets very speedy when I hold a whip as I lunge. It's probably because I'm not using it correctly, it's dragging behind me as I rotate in the middle. She's fine at walk, but will transition to canter tro frot, and will be very hard to stop. But if I drop the whip she's fine, and easy to control.  

[Cloud_cirrus]

I have been re-taught how to lunge by starting standing about 8 foot away from the horses shoulder and asking them to walk on, walking about 8 steps and then asking them to stop by vibrating the lunge line (which is attached to the lunge cavesson) and saying halt, at the same time I turn my shoulder slightly towards the horse to 'block' the movement.  When the horse halts on command they get a reward.  This is done around the edge of the arena working in small walk halt combinations.  Once this is established you can ask for some bend and gradually turn it into a circle.  Ideally you should be able to divide the circle up into quarters and stop at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock etc.  Once you have cracked this, go to complete circles, then try upping the pace, then mixing it up a bit, half circle in one pace, one and half circles in another.  You should find that the horse soon learns the difference between a vibration and halt and a vibration and the comand for a different pace.

I had a pony that had been taught lunging as galloping around like a mad thing for 10 minutes (exactly) then changing the rein (himself) and going off in the other direction.  It was a bit harder with him so I started the straight walk towards the corner of the school and then when he went managed to give the halt command and keep him from coming past me so he ended up in the corner of the school looking very confused at which point I said halt and gave him a treat.  A couple of times like this and he soon got the message and can now halt on command anywhere and even do a few steps of rein back.

I agree with the others that you need to get all the physical stuff looked at as well, it may be that your horse associates circles with pain in some way, lunging can be a lot more strenous than you think.

I'd avoid anything like side reins or a pessoa for the minute until you have established some very basic discipline from the cavesson.

Tracey

[mrsmurchin]

Thank-you all for the replies, some really good suggestions (and points I'd forgotten!).

I've just spent the afternoon reading posts on another forum, and I think I may have inadvertantly trained her to misbehave on the lunge.  It's amazing how quickly they learn the bad stuff!  Because she has just come off box rest, I was letting her get away with bucking and running to let off steam in a controlled (Ha!) way without injuring her leg.  Boy have I got it wrong.  I've obviously let my standards slip and allow her to get away with things, at first without me noticing (feeling sorry for her).  Don't get me wrong, she is not completely out of control, I can still dictate her direction and pace when leading, and she totally respects my space in and out of the stable, its just the school thing!  I'm obviously not making my space/boundaries clear enough to her.

Trish - as I've been doing PNH level 2 ground work, she has learnt that a lift of the lead rope means change the pace upwards, a point at her HQ means disengage them.  I now realise this is wrong in the mind of the horse, as like you say there is a definite drive line which somehow I've managed to get the other way around! (Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, maybe you've already done PNH?)

Anyway, I'm going to have a bash tonight to see how we get on.  Going to go right back to basics, as Tracey has suggested.  I'm reluctant to do too much though until the physio has seen her on Saturday.

Will let you know how we get on!

Elaine.

[Candypony]

Hi

Just wanted to say that I second Tracey's post - I couldn't lunge my little mare when I first got her (galloped round in a panic, even breaking cavessons no matter what I tried :( ) but by going back to real basics she's becoming a model lunger despite the occasional whoopee if we're outside!   We still re-visit the "distance work" bit every so often to remind ourselves of the discipline and to vary life a little...

Good luck!

S

 

[rach]

Hi Elaine.

Sorry to hear of the difficulties you are having with your mare.

It sounds, as others have said, as though there is either a physical issue at work here, or a training/body language issue, or both. At this point IIWY I would first take a step back. Have her check by a physio if you haven't already done so, then perhaps re-introduce work slowly. it does not have to be lungeing - you have free schooling, in hand or long reining options available which may suit her better at the moment.

It could just be that you are giving off confusing signals, although from what you say of her actions under saddle too I am inclined to think there is probably a mismatch between the two of you in terms of her needs and your available skills, if I am interpreting correctly. I have been there and printed off a job lot of T shirts.

I had these problems years ago with my orange mare. She absolutely would not settle on the lunge and would go faster and faster, and would also often take off with me under saddle. I didn't have the skill at the time to deal with either problem, and had to learn. At the heart of these problems was a lack of balance, and a lack of trust. A lack of balance is a really big issue for a horse and one which does not predispose him (or her) to feelings of security.

In the case of my mare she did have significant physical issues which took quite a while to resolve, and a muscle system that was completely inverted.

I would first have her checked out by a physio, then if you can, re-introduce work slowly - as slowly as you have to in order to keep within a comfort zone for the two of you. There are lots of Ttouch exercise you can do on the ground with poles to help her with her balance and also to help you develop a good working relationship. I also found that free schooling work was absolutely invaluable in helping us develop our communication lines into something that was meaningful, effective and confidence-giving to her. I would also look as a matter of urgency for a sympathetic trainer who will help you and the mare work towards a better understanding. This will probably take a long time but is absolutely worth the effort if you are committed to the horse.

I would be tempted to do some simple in hand work with her to help the trust side of things along. All you need is a heacollar, long line and a schooling or in hand whip. By developing her leading skills in such a way that she is constantly monitoring you for instructions for walk, halt, trot etc, based on your body language, you will be doing much to work on your communication skills and your relationship. I firmly believe this is the basis to a successful relationship. It is not join up or anything like that, for which I have a limited tolerance, but Manners and Communication 101. You can't control a horse by force, effectively, but if you have his mind then his body will absolutely follow. I do a lot of this type of work with my stallion and it really does work. It's my opinion that many people don't pay nearly enough attention to these things as they should, and that if they did, many common handling issues would never get out of the starting blocks.

Good luck

Rach


 

[shoveltrash]

Elaine....i wanted to reiterate Rach's comments....said so much more eloquently and accurately than my own!  (Rach, you are the BEST at this).
the only thing i'll add about the ground training/lead training:
control the body, not the head.
i've seen young horses ruined simply by being led constantly by the nose!
hauling on the lead/long line, pulling the head right or left, disciplining by yanking on the lead......etc.
the key to it, as Rach says, is body language.  
good luck!!!!!
Trish

[mrsmurchin]

Hello all, just thought I'd give you an update.

I took Genie in the school on friday for a groundwork session.  Tracey - I did exactly what you had suggested and it worked beautifully!  She was really well behaved, even when the other horses who were being brought in, started running around refusing to be caught, she stayed 'with' me mentally and physically, because I kept my level of energy down and insisted on her paying attention.  We did some work over poles, backwards, sideways and forwards (all at walk), she just kept this soft look on her face and didn't resist anything.  What I have found is as soon as I start 'lunging', i.e. following her around, she starts panicking, whereas, when we circle (I pass the line behind me and stay completely still) she visibly relaxes and doesn't try to run off.  This could be either because of my body language, but also, her previous owner lunged her to death chasing her to get her to canter (she is trotter x so finds this pace difficult).   I also think she likes the responsibility of doing the circle on her own, being independently minded!

On Saturday, I had the vet out (annual checkup and jab) who signed off her injury and actually congratulated me on a job well done!!  He admitted that he thought she was going to take longer to heal because she wouldn't leave the bandage on in the first week.  As it is she is sound on the injured leg and can be ridden as normal.  The Osteopath also came out that morning, and couldn't find an awful lot wrong with her.  There was some soreness in the hip on the injured leg and also in the opposite shoulder, but other than that she said she had improved since she last saw her (September).   I took her for a walk in hand and again she behaved beautifully!  It was as though the groundwork session re-established my position in our herd of two and she was happy to accept me as the leader.

Yesterday, I took her in the school for a riding session.  Couldn't fault her!  She spooked a little at the scary end of the school (all the horses hate that part of the school) but nothing too major.  She had the new Neu Schule bit in (hanging cheek tranz lozenge) which she played with a little but actually settled down with it so I think we've had a breakthrough there also!  The main difference for us riding was me.  I've started working through Liz Morrisons 'Simple Steps To Riding Success' NLP book and I can honestly say it has helped enormously.  Because I've had years of riding lessons and had to pay for them, I've been stuck in the mindset of getting the most out of 'my hour' in the school.  Now that I own a horse, I no longer have to think like that as I can ride whenever I want!  What a revelation!!  It's only taken me 3 years!!

So all-in-all, it's been a productive weekend, and I'd just like to thank everyone for the support you gave me on this forum.  I know it sounds OTT but I can honestly say this is the best forum I've found for constructed, well thought of advice that is given politely with no maliciousness.

Elaine (and Genie!)

[Cloud_cirrus]

I'm so glad you found everyone's advice helpful and that physically things are looking up for your horse.  It's amazing that once you re-establish some respect and boundaries on the ground, how this translates to ridden work as well.

I spent a very enjoyable day on Sunday attending a Sport Psychology for riders day run by Liz Morrison, if you enjoyed the book I'd recommend you try a session, it really helped me to establish some goals and work out where I want to be going with my horse.

If you are interested PM me and I'll send you her details.

Tracey

[shoveltrash]

Elaine (& Genie!) - it sounds as though you are making great progress!!!
my current riding horse has a 'fear' component similar to yours i think - he was chased around on the lunge by his previous owner, who did not ride him at all & didn't know how to handle him.  so i have to be extremely careful, and always take him back to his 'comfort zone' when he gets uptight....i.e. slow it down, do basic calming work.  "relaxation" is at the very bottom of the training scale for a reason!
'glad you are having success.
Trish