A Problem With Speed....

[jaymmz]

Hi All

I have had Fletch for 9 weeks now and we are getting on very well.
A bit of history, his previous owner was a man who I believe just cantered him round a feild for 3 years popping him over a few jumps as he went. No regular flatwork, probably none at all. I think it was also a case of kick to go fast, pull to stop. When I first rode him in our school, he would just go straight from walk to canter with no trot at all. After a few weeks work on this, and a big thanks to nix for the work she has done to, trot is comming along quite nicely and trot to canter transitions are no longer an explosive affair.

The trouble is, once a pace is established be it trot or canter, Fletch just wants to speed up faster and faster. It is very difficult to keep a steady pace. Not really any collection to speak of. It's like he's thinking "must go faster, must go faster".

Any advice would be mush appreciated.

Also, it's very difficult to keep him straight to. Relax for one moment and he will leave the outside track and just collaps in to the center of the school.

Ok oh knowlegable ones, do your stuff, as I really need some input.

J

p.s. I am riding him in my lovely SBS and have this week put him back in a copper eggbut snaffle. He was in a flexi mullen mouth pellam (so nix could use the double reigns) but I can't get the hang of the double reign thing at this stage so have gone back to the snaffle rather than use roundings on the pellam (which I did use at first, sorry Heather)

[Cobstar]

My girl is a chunky heavyweight cob - one that prefers to tank round on the forehand at warp factor cob rather than a plod.  I had lots of problems with her dictating the speed when I first had her.  I found that the best way to control the tanking off at a faster tempo than I wanted was to immediately bring her back to a slower gait (ie walk if we were trotting, trot if we were cantering) reestablish control and then ask for trot again. Sometimes we only got a few steps of the faster gait before we had to change down again. We did an awful lot of walk    But she soon twigged what was wanted and could then be slowed within the gait with a half halt.

 

[cptrayes]

This all sounds like a balance issue J. Young horses speed up when they are feeling unbalanced, and they fall in off the track. I think you should assume that your horse is at about the level of a newly broken 4 year old in his training and go from there. Cobstar's advice is great.  Mine is don't try to stay on straight lines too much, big circles all over the place until he has learned to balance better. So if you're going up the long side and you feel the balance start to deteriorate, circle. Mandeigh favours serpentines which loop back towards themselves so the horse is never asked to go straight, and I've had some success with those too.

Good luck.

C

[Cobstar]

... don't try to stay on straight lines too much, big circles all over the place until he has learned to balance better. So if you're going up the long side and you feel the balance start to deteriorate, circle. Mandeigh favours serpentines which loop back towards themselves so the horse is never asked to go straight, and I've had some success with those too.

 

It's fascinating how different horses need different things.  And different riders have success with different technigues. My mare has been one of the few horses I've ridden where circles weren't the answer initially as getting a correct bend was a big issue.  She just went out through her shoulder and barged on round the wall of death and ignored my feeble attempts to slow her down.  

[jaymmz]

Thanks Cobstar, that sounds logical. I'll work on bringing him back down to a slower gait rather than try to keep him steady and remain in trot or canter, till he get's the idea. This will sharpen him up a bit to listen to half halts too, which he deosn't do very well right now.


cptrayes, I think you are dead right about his balance. It is an issue I think. He will be 9 in April, but his schooling is certainly not at the level of a 9 year old. What a shame his previous owner neglected his schooling, he is such a good horse. He is a I.D. crossed with a Section D (i know, bit odd) and he can be a bit slow in the brain department sometimes. But circles and serpentines sound good. He doesn't bend very much and without a lot of effort his circles look more like diamond shapes (or hexagons on a good day). I will try what you said and see what happens.

Fletch has got so much potential, for the brief moments when his trot comes together and he goes into an outline, it is just jaw dropping. This may take longer than I originally hoped, but worth the effort I think.

Keep the advice comming folks

James

[franklin]

Hi all
I agree change the pace and direction, give the horse plenty of warning before you do something, try half halts, keep the training sessions short and sweet, do some work when you are hacking. Please remember the horses haven't read the book !, each horse is different that is the fun.
Jenny.

[pintopiaffe]

Have you done much, if any, lungeing with him?

I was soundly chastised (and quite embarassed, frankly) the first time I took my stallion with me to my teacher's.  My boy came to me as an unbroken 5 yo--with IMPECCABLE ground manners.  he'd been 'sacked out' fairly early on, very well, but a real cowboy type,  and I did only a minute amount of ground driving and then just got on.  Because he was so sensible about the tack and such, I never did the several-months of groundwork I'd normally do with a BABY horse...

PART of that ground work is muscling up, and learning to bend, and learning self carriage.

GOOD lunging with correctly adjusted side reins helps the horse to learn to bend, to carry more weight on the inside hind, to give to the bit... He learns tempo, half-halts, changes within gaits, etc.

My teacher watched us for about 10 minutes, got on for a few minutes, put my horse on the lunge and said "See?  He does not even know how to go in a 20m circle correctly."  The rest of the lesson was teaching him tempo and bend and to reach forward into the bridle softly and come down-round-through (Forward-down-out).

We went back to lunging 101 for about 3 months with my guy--still riding some days after, other days just lungeing... gradually increasing the level of difficulty--smaller circles, spirals; shortening the sidereins as he came into self carriage and started using his back...

Lungeing IS hard on their joints if done poorly.  If done well, it is indespensible for building balance and self-carriage.

These days I'll go back to lungeing when we are working on something specific--i.e walk-canter or canter walk transitions... getting a more engaged, rounder 10m circle etc.  Now I also add other groundwork (close-in-hand work, Portuguese style) but the lungeing is invaluable.  

[cptrayes]

James if he'll do diamonds, do diamonds - they can be really really good for a horse that runs. Go from A to E to C to B in straight lines. Turn by making the shoulders come around first, then let him find his own balance until he hits the next marker (sometimes literally at first!). Can work wonders, especially if the running is more strop than lack of capability!

C.

[Cobstar]

James if he'll do diamonds, do diamonds - they can be really really good for a horse that runs. Go from A to E to C to B in straight lines. Turn by making the shoulders come around first, then let him find his own balance until he hits the next marker (sometimes literally at first!). Can work wonders, especially if the running is more strop than lack of capability!

C.

Thank you for that helpful reminder.  That tipped proved/proves usefully with a certain uppity cob  :lol:

Also excellent for developing correctly shaped circles with spatially challenged riders like me.  I'm a great one for ending up with three relatively circular quarter segments and then a strange wiggly line to finish on any horse but the diamond thing has helped me to improve enormously.

[Tabitha]

Sorry, just wanted to butt into this thread. Thank you all for reconfirming what I have been doing with my lovely boy. I haven't got much to add, but it is nice to know that I am doing the right sort of things.

As you possibly know from my earlier post, I have been having problems with bend. It's linked into so many different things - balance, tempo etc. and I am finding that I can't just work on one aspect because as soon I think I have improved the bend I find he won't keep a consistent trot rhythm - i.e. - he uses speeding up in trot to evade having to bend. The inconsistent trot means we lose balance and I get 3 strides of trot and have to bring him down to a walk. Sometimes the transitions downwards ar great........ sometimes they are awful. I've been doing a lot of the exercises suggested here and in my earlier thread (thank you by the way to all those who contributed), so it nice to know that I am on the right track so to speak, especially as I feel we are making painfully slow progress.

Lungeing is certainly on the agenda and I have just booked some lessons with my instructor to ensure that any ground work I do. I do it properly and importantly - effectively.

Thank you everyone!

[jaymmz]

Hi all. Had a much better time in the school this week. All we did was circles. On saturday we had to use the indoor school as it was so windy, so it took a little while to settle him, so did alot of walk straight into a circle, and used the time to get him to soften and bend down. took about 15 minutes to get a result but walk was pretty good on both reigns.
Then into trot. Whoa! yet again after about 5 or 6 strides on comes the speed, so I took him back to walk and then tried again. The circle became a diamond-ish shape but I didn't worry about that, and did a half halt with a load "whoa" at each corner which kind of worked although the pace was still quite fast. It took alot longer to get him to streatch down in trot, heis head is up all the time and he seems to be looking everywhere, but I kind of wiggled the left reighn and then the right reign and then imediatley gave him the reign and that seemed to keep him slower and got him bending down quite nicely if only for a few seconds.
It seems if you give a little with the contact he doesn't charge of right away. But it seems that after a few seconds he forgets everything your've been asking for brings his head up and zooms of and you have to come back into walk.
But I saw some definate progress

Also, I believe he acts very differently when a man is on him, as to when a woman is on him. I have seen a number of ladies ride him now and he does behave differently. At friend of mine (the only other guy at the yard) is going to ride him and prove my theory.
 

[nix]

Hi James

Glad you got my email ... my internet connection's been a bit dodgy recently and had probs with incoming and outgoing emails   . Evening lessons aren't a prob!

[jaymmz]

Just thought I'd give you guys a little update.
Things are starting to improve. I have been keeping him on circles (or diamonds ) and doing lots of walk/halt transitions, and keeping the trot down to short bursts. I have to use half halts ALOT! And really give him plenty of warning too before anything.
Nix has given me some help this wek too with a couple of really good trotting exersices.
It is quite difficult to keep him focused on what we are doing, he gets distracted so easily. And we also have a problem with stopping. Sometimes, it's like he switches off and ignores all my aids and signals to stop completely, even in walk.
Last night we were doing walk to halt transitions and a 20M circle, and he was doing fine. Then we tried something else (can't remember what, changed the reign and did some 10 meter circles I think) and when I came to ask him to yhalt, it was like he had never stoped in his life, ignored all the signals and just kept walking! Right into the corner of the school! Quite funny actually, him just walking straight into the corner with nowhere to go and nothing of particular interest for him there, I had to laugh

Anyway things are definatly improving, sort of.

Oh, on thursday, he did very well indeed, and at the end of the session, I thought I'd try a little canter. Oh dear, 3 strides and he exploded into full gallop! In our small outdoor school! Whoa there I really must take him out somewhere and let him run, I think he really likes it and needs to get it out his system. Not good in the school though, those corners seemed very tight indeed at that speed

[cptrayes]

Thanks for the update James, so often you don't get to hear what happens next. And your description of the periodic deafness made me smile. I have one exactly the same, even to the walking straight into the wall because he doesn't hear the stop signals   . Is he like mine in what causes it? I have worked out over four years nearly that he's a bit autistic. If you overload him with new inputs (or if HE thinks you have, anyway   ), then he switches off altogether, almost as if he is protecting himself. He'll do it when he's not being ridden too. I finallly worked out what a sensitive soul he is (though he's a gallumphing great IDx) and realised that new things and changes of instructions have to be introduced fairly slowly so his brain can keep up!

Good luck. Have fun.

C