'drive! Drive! Drive With Your Bottom!'

[Jack Frost]

Hi folks!

In an attempt to improve upon my BHS riding school horse 8 year experience myself and my OH have made the following adjustments to our riding life.......

I've read Heather's EE book from back to front;

I sought out a classical instructor who was recommended to me by someone who uses this site and we have been having weekly lessons - at least 9 now on the lunge out of 16 lessons with this instructor.

I am working my way through Mary Wanless' and Sally Swift's books too.

I got as far as enquiring about the Equisimulator course for both of us but circumstances were not right for us for the Dec course.

And your point is JF? :P

Sorry to go on. :unsure:

We both have the opportunity to ride at a livery stable where we have occasional lessons with the onsite RI.  

Delightful lady, mid fifties, BHS I but teaches very much what is not desired in the EE / Classical route.

Why do we have the lessons? :blush:

Well it is mostly to learn to jump as we don't do this at all with our classical RI and also when other people ask us to ride / look after their horses when they are on hols we tend to like to book a lesson to get to know the horse better under the supervision of an instructor before we hack out.

Today, OH did a super canter transition on a v.v.v.v.v bouncy trotted horse who was being a tad lazy at the beginning of the session.

Immediately the RI exclaimed;

'Great! Now drive, drive, drive with your seat to keep him moving!'

I have heard and read correctly havn't I?

Those words are wrong aren't they?  

I have been doing lots of canter work with classical RI and I am encouraged to sit up tall, have a quiet seat, think up and light and move my hips with the horse, upper body still and leg on.

For one reason or another OH has not cantered in our classical lessons and so this was the first time he had the opportunity to canter in a school environment since July.

How do you guys deal with these sort of contradictions?



 

[ros]

We go with our instincts and with what we've proved to ourselves works.  OK?    

[TashaKat]

Today, OH did a super canter transition on a v.v.v.v.v bouncy trotted horse who was being a tad lazy at the beginning of the session.

Immediately the RI exclaimed;

'Great! Now drive, drive, drive with your seat to keep him moving!'

I have heard and read correctly havn't I?

Those words are wrong aren't they?   

Hiya

Yes, unfortunately you probably did hear correctly.

I was told the same thing when I started back as an adult.  Thankfully I had an excellent dyed-in-the-wool BHS instructor as my first ever instructor who would have dragged me off her horses by my ear if I'd have even attempted to drive with my seat, she is how the BHS is supposed to be, with her roots in classical origins.  Anyway .... I completely ignored the instructor who was telling me to drive (a BHSII!) and took my business elsewhere.

What I did find, however, was that the plod that I was riding went much better in canter when I sat straight and still than she ever did when others were pushing and shovelling!

To be honest I'd stick to the classical instruction.  I cannot tolerate that kind of instruction and will certainly not do anything that I feel to be incorrect even if I am the pupil.

Anyway, good luck  I'm currently trying to sort myself out with a classically orientated trainer .... hopefully I'm nearly there!  I just can't be doing with the 'shorten your reins', 'get her chin on her chest' type of instruction that you see these days .....

[Heather]

Aaarrrghh!! The good ol' BHS!! Jack Frost, stick with your instincts, she is wrong and you are right to question it. It never ceases to amaze me just how blind the instructors are once indoctrinated by the BHS- yet nowhere in the BHS handbook do I see 'driving with the seat advocated' at least, not in my old copy.

Heather

[Numbat]

I have the same kind of problem. We get different instructors come through here and don't have a lot of choice, it's either them or no-one. Sure, you can go all superior and say "I can't learn from a person who advocates a driving seat", but it's hard doing everything by yourself, and they might still have a lot to teach you. After a couple of real duds, I adopted a basic test that I stand by: Does the horse go better (by my own criteria, which include that the horse seems happier) at the end of the lesson than at the beginning? If yes, we're probably gaining something. If not, I'll give them another go - teachers need a chance to adapt to you, too - and then if things don't improve, that's it.

If it's a yes, there might still be things I don't like. But I can still learn from them, and the fact that the horse is going better suggests they might actually know better than me!  With my current teacher I had to drop the dressage lessons, because our lesson made my horse stiff and upset. Just not our style. But she still teaches my daughter on a different horse (their lessons passed my test) and it's been educational for me to see how the slightly forceful approach she made my daughter use at first, has softened as my daughter gained confidence and control, and she's getting her to be a lot more subtle now. And I still take jumping lessons from her and both the horse and I learn something every time.

[Possum]

That;s not BHS teachong - or BHS style - or anything that ha ever been advocated by the BHS

That is an instructor going her own route...

I'd ask her to explain exactly how driving with the seat will influence the horse - and how it will encourage him to lift his back and activate the hind leg, and increase the carrying power of the hind leg (but there again,  can be awkward if I like)

The other method is to ride SO WELL in your own style, that the horse works beautifully, and the i nstructor can preen and prove to herself that getting you to drive with your seat worked SO much better!!!!


I got a FBHS (ok at the time he was a BHSI) totally red in the face once, by questioning exactly WHY he wanted more "outside" bend for a counter-canter.... he'd been assuming I thought the outside wee the outside of the school, not the horse......

 

[Jack Frost]

Thanks for your replies folks.

We still learn a lot in the lessons and some of the points that she corrects on are similar to our classical RI.

I like the idea of going to her lessons and riding as well as possible in the flat work part of the lesson so that there isn't too much to correct and then just get on with the jumping lesson.

Thankyou

 

JF

 

[Possum]

in that case - take her to the pub after a lesson, and explore the "drive" theory with her....

(arm yourself with knowledge first) -

You may make her into an even better instructor!
 

[hinny_heart]

I agree with Possum.

At least you might make her *think* which is all (but "all" is a great deal ...) that is lacking from a lot of otherwise-good instruction (IMO).

[Jaydee]

Having started riding again after a long break, and not going down the own-horse route, I have had umpteen "lessons" in a number of establishments, all from so-called BHS qualified instructors.

My objective was to get going again comfortably at four speeds and over lowish fences.

I've had endless "instruction" of the sort that does not fit in with the way I want to ride. I've had "dressage" I didn't ask for, and been put on animals dead to the leg and heavy in the hand, I've been told to 'kick' and 'drive' and 'push' and 'hit him' and 'shorten the reins' to the point of lunacy.

I have stopped the horse and come to the instructor/ess. I have said, quietly and reasonably, "Humour me a moment. Let me ride him another way and see what happens. Don't fret about my position because it is the saddle that is causing it. Let's just see how the horse goes."

Most of them then seem happy - even relieved - to let me continue. Some don't, and I don't give them my custom again. Basically, they see me as the nutty old lady that rides funny but the horses go all right, and once their professional reputation isn't called into the equation (because they can only teach one way) and I take the responsibility for riding 'wrongly' they realise my money is the same colour whether I do the things they want or not.

[WendyP]

This is why I removed myself and my horse from our former riding school home and then spent 5 months not having lessons. Now I do have lessons (2 or 3 a month) with a BHSAI and I just let slide anything I don't agree with (although in the main we agree).  I notice that some things she suggests don't work and things I do work and I find she no longer asks me to do those things that don't work and leaves me to do those things that do work.   I guess we both need to learn.  

I have a more experienced friend who assists me but we discuss technique and she reads my blog so she knows the stuff I don't agree with.   She advocates the buffet approach - think of all the techniques as a buffet and just pick the ones you want to use. So she can't be surprised when I pick different things to her.  

[Shantor]

I was taught to ride like this in the early 1970's!    <_<   We were told to drive our seats forward and back, at the same time, give and take with our hands.  The saddles were highly polished, our jodphurs worn out and the riding school ponies totally switched off and bored...some of the more 'blood' types would get fed up at being jabbed in the mouth and would buck the poor rider off!  

Confusing to say the least!

[1 morejump]

*sigh* I don't know why people say that.  Why on earth would you want to be slamming on the horse's back when the objective is to lift and round it? argh!
I think it may stem from an effort to imitate the classical school.  In classical dressage we use our seat a lot but, to an instructor who doesn't want to take the time and do it right, driving with your seat sounds great to a novice.  And best of all they're a novice, if they ask why, you don't need a reason.  argh!!!!

[Heather]

Hi Mary,

Hmm, when you say you use your seat a lot in Classical dressage, what do you mean? I use weight aids, and the seat as a retarding/collecting aid, and cadencing, but never for impulsion/driving.

Heather

[JulieR]

I would smile sweetly, take on board valid things that she may say, and carry on riding classically, and when she contradicts something or which does not feel right develop a very thick expression, smile again and carry on classically! Go with your instincts everytime unless she can justify otherwise!