Reactor-panel Saddle Versus Treeless?

[Rowena]

Hello,
I am a new member here and would like to hear your thoughts on saddle types please. I am thinking about going Treeless, but have a question about another saddle which seems to me a possible compromise between treeless and treed saddles.

Has anyone heard of an English saddle named The Roe Richardson Reactor-panel saddle? It is a treed saddle which sits on top of flexible foam panels which are fully adjustable, and are connected by shock-absorbing sorbothane mounts. When the saddle was launched about 12 years ago, it was pressure tested with a computerised numnah and is supposed to eliminate pressure points.

Anyway, I was wondering if you had any thoughts about how this would compare with a Treeless as far as the horses back is concerned? The panels do mould exactly along the backs of each and every horse I have fitted it to. And of course there is absolutely no chance of the treed part ever making contact with the spine.

I look forward to your opinions on this.
 

[Heather]

Hi Rowena,

Yes, the Roe Richardson was popular here at one time. I thought the idea was great, but then tried one, and found that there the way in which the rider interacted with it, could seriously detract from the way in which it worked. Being bi-panel if the rider is absorbing the movement correctly, and allowing the seatbones to rise and fall unilaterally with the horse's back there was no problem, although I did find on my big moving warmblood at the time, that it 'walked' up his neck.

But with riders who drive with the seat, shoving both seatbones back and forward together, the panels could no longer operate separatelyand would drive into the shoulder.

I dont like them for this reason, and they do not give anywhere near the freedom of any of the treeless saddles, not only my own.

Heather

[JaneF]

I have both a custom made ReactorPanel for a difficult to fit horse, and two treeless saddles (Ansur and Bob Marshall, which is really barless).  I originally purchased the Ansur for the horse who ended up with the RP, but had pressure problems with it.  

I know Heather doesn't believe the RP concept works as it should, but I've had an opposite experience.  When my horse in the treeless became sore at the withers and lumbar with pressure points under the stirrup attachments, the RP mitigated all these.    

I began with a stock RP, and had a bit of trouble with it sliding forward and a little too much lateral movement.  I ordered a custom saddle of the same model.  It fit perfectly and was the first saddle of innumerable tried that both settled into her back and gave complete shoulder freedom.  She is very round bodied with low withers and well laid back shoulders.  The Ansur caused some shoulder interference and tightness, while the RP has none.  Four years since purchasing the saddle, it's still an excellent fit for her.  The Ansur also is less comfortable for the rider on my very wide horse than the RP.  The RP doesn't bother my hip flexors. It allows a lovely leg drape without struggling for position while doing the "splits" which can be common on wide horses in treeless saddles.

A properly fitted RP should not drive into the shoulders regardless of the rider.  Of course, heavy seated riders are harder on any horse's back in any saddle than light seated ones.  The RP is the only saddle I know of that does not produce tissue damaging pressure at the stirrup bars even when a rider is standing in the stirrups.  

The current owner of ReactorPanel is not the original owner/designer.  Some of the early saddles may not have had optimally fitted trees.  Now they have a huge range of sizes, including custom at no extra charge.  The one that fits my mare so well has a wider pommel arch than typical for the width to accommodate her shoulders/low withers, and a slightly widened waist for her broad back/barrel body.  This combination keeps it very stable on her back.

[Marengo]

I think that nowadays there are better options in terms of treed saddles that give more flexibility, such as the Wow saddle system, for about the same price. Wow saddles can be altered to fit a much wider array of horses than a Reactor Panel saddle, which I don't believe has an adjustable tree (unless they've changed it within the last year). The saddle can only be adjusted, via the panels and blocks, to fit to horses that are narrower than the tree the saddle contains.  I think Wow have also tested the pressures on their saddles in a similar way to how Reactor Panel tested theirs and have come out with favourable results.  

There are also other treed saddles around with hi-tec trees, such as the Strada saddle, that have flexible shock absorbing panels. You can see those on www.dressage-saddles-uk.com . These saddles are also very nice in that they're not bulky or heavy as some adjustable saddles can be. The stirrup bars on a Strada are designed so that they eliminate the possibility of any pressure from the stirrup bars coming into contact with the horse's back, even when the rider is standing in the stirrups for a long period of time.  

Of course, treeless saddles disperse pressure and shock in different ways to a treed saddle. They use up the energy contained in pressure and shock via shock absorbing materials and disperse pressure through composite layers of different materials. Still, they need to be fitted correctly to the horse, just as you would fit a treed saddle properly.

Still, the best thing to do is to trial the products effectively - for at least several days if possible.  

[minkymoo2]

I had a Free'n'Easy which is almost identical to the RR saddle in its concept.  I had trouble with it putting me in the "back" seat position and it also moved right constantly.

I have tried other treeless saddles since but couldnt get better than my WOW.

[kathlow]

I too have tried the various twin panelled saddle designs, and found problems with them.

The biggest problem is that they are advertised as fitting a wide variety of horse widths and shapes, and in actual fact by design they are FIXED width. The way they 'work' in theory is that the 4 pins the panels fix to give a gimbal arrangement that the panels ROTATE about this fixed point. THe key to understanding is that the panels do not move outwards or inwards as a piece; they merely rotate around their fixings in a little ball and socket or with the velcro mounts in alternative designs. Therefore, various angles of a horse's back can be accommodated but only about this one fixed width.

Another issue I have is the idea of weight distribution as advertised... well at least when I was trying them out some years ago - I have not kept up to date with the latest designs... I found bridging or 4 point pressure. Reason being again the 4 point fixing method. To correctly distribute load you need a (near) uniformly 'stiff' bearing area ie the panel of the saddle next to the horses back. Think of how a saggy cushion would distribute weight vs. a ply board. These panels had varying degrees of stiffness and some were really hard at the edges too, which dug into the back at the margins.

The idea was OK(ish) but in practical terms these were very inflexible to fit to a variety of horses as they were FIXED width between the pins!!! Not what they were advertised as.

(And yes I am a geek engineer if you were wondering... )

I think there are better options now.

Regards.

[Clipclop]

I do not have any experience with treeless saddles.

However I have had experience with both WOW and RP.

WOW was certainly a lot better than a normal treed saddle and really thought I would not be converted.

Then I got to ride in a RP and fell in love. So for me, RP is the best. I haven't had any problems with fitting etc. THe muscle in his back had buillt up loads and my instructor could not believe the difference in his movement.

Hmm, what's that saying "Horses for courses" or something like that? I just think you have got to find the saddle that floats your boat. As Marengo says. Give them a try out. Both types of saddles have that option.

CHeers
C x  

[JaneF]

The biggest problem is that they are advertised as fitting a wide variety of horse widths and shapes, and in actual fact by design they are FIXED width. The way they 'work' in theory is that the 4 pins the panels fix to give a gimbal arrangement that the panels ROTATE about this fixed point. THe key to understanding is that the panels do not move outwards or inwards as a piece; they merely rotate around their fixings in a little ball and socket or with the velcro mounts in alternative designs. Therefore, various angles of a horse's back can be accommodated but only about this one fixed width.
.

The RP is only fixed in the sense that it has a tree size.  RP doesn't claim to fit all or most horses with one saddle size.  The attachments  for the panels are sorbothane discs, which are made of a shock absorbing material.  The combination of the discs that can be moved and the flexible panels make this quite a different combination from the OrthoFlex, American Flex, or the Free 'n Easy.  The RP also has a traditional wood/spring steel tree rather than a molded synthetic most of the other English flex panel saddles do.

[Fiona]

The biggest problem is that they are advertised as fitting a wide variety of horse widths and shapes, and in actual fact by design they are FIXED width. The way they 'work' in theory is that the 4 pins the panels fix to give a gimbal arrangement that the panels ROTATE about this fixed point.

With all due respect, Free and Easy saddles do not work this way.  The four bolts that hold the panels on can be adjusted in length so as to change the width / angle of space between the panels.  The panels are then fixed in this position (rather than rotating aroud the fixing points like an Orthoflex).  This, coupled with a choice of five basic widths which can each be adjusted +/- ten degrees in angle means the saddles fit a wide range of horses, but not the *same* saddle.  

Edited to add (because I forgot before ) you then have a selection of shims to fill the gap between tree and panels so the pressure is evenly distributed rather than concentrated under the bolts

Fiona  

[Natural Dressage]

Good description of the mechanics involved and how that affects fit and pressure.  That is exactly what kept me from even being interested in the concept - add that you are so disconnected from the horse, being sat up in the saddle on a totally different plane, not even in full contact with the one below.  There can be no direct feel or contact from pressure applied ie by a seatbone under the actual place where the pressure is applied.  It looks very strange and disconnected from the horse.

[Fiona]

I agree, they do look a bit funny  

Personally I think the concept is more suited to endurance riding, where weight distribution is the most important aspect of saddle fit and subtle nuances of aids less so.  That's just my opinion though  B)

Fiona

[JaneF]

Good description of the mechanics involved and how that affects fit and pressure.  That is exactly what kept me from even being interested in the concept - add that you are so disconnected from the horse, being sat up in the saddle on a totally different plane, not even in full contact with the one below.  There can be no direct feel or contact from pressure applied ie by a seatbone under the actual place where the pressure is applied.  It looks very strange and disconnected from the horse.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, honest. I just don't want to see the RP misrepresented.  The engineering of it really is awesome.

This description isn't true of the ReactorPanel.  The tree sits directly on the panels in the center, with two sorbothane discs at the front, and two at the back.  The panels are thinner than many traditional flocked panels.  The discs add minimal distance (they compress too) between the panels and tree at the four attachment points.  The result is a close contact ride, not one in which the rider is suspended above the horse. Some flex panel saddles are suspended above the panels; RP is not one of them.  I tried an OrthoFlex and that was one of the things I disliked.

[Clipclop]

add that you are so disconnected from the horse, being sat up in the saddle on a totally different plane, not even in full contact with the one below.  There can be no direct feel or contact from pressure applied ie by a seatbone under the actual place where the pressure is applied.  It looks very strange and disconnected from the horse.

I can totally see how you came to this conclusion. Before sitting and using one I would have said the same thing.

I can honestly say I have way way more feeling in my RP than any other saddle I have ever sat in. I feel way more connected and I get a much better response from my horse than I have ever had before.

Just felt the need to tell you that :P  :blink:

byeeee

C x  :blush:  

[celia cohen]

Hi,
This is a very interestingf topic for me.
I originally thought and to some degree still do, what a fantastic idea the RP design is.
However with all things there are downsides.
I agree IF and only IF the RP is fitted properly they can be a very good solution for a horse with poor muscle tone, dipped back etc. My problem is the people that fit them are not qualified. They may have been trained by the RP people and i believe the english franchise is owned by saddle exchange who have there own training but they are NOT a member of a professional body , the society of master saddlers and by no means have the knowledge underpinning correct and theraputic saddle fitting.
I personally had a RP and for 3 months yes it helped my previously pinched horse but after that time, 6 further call outs by the 'saddle fitter'  and a  year of persverance i had no end of problems, as it was slipping , he was sore , dipping his back when tacked up and on mounting and was very weak behind the saddle. I was having to treat my own horse for back pain weekly - good help me if i had had to pay for that.
I ended up rowing with the guy - (no names) with him claiming it was not the saddle though the horse clearly had 2 disc shape areas of muscle wastage under the cantle and didn't want the saddle near his back urmmm think i know my horse. This soreness was not due to my riding, even if i had been a sack of spuds the RP should if it ditrubutes weight so well been able to compensate better.
In essence i am not dissing the saddle just the people who so called fit them. I felt a fool when i stripped the saddle of the panels , sat the tree on the horses back it was darn obvious the tree was never going to fit the horse, and my master saddle fitter showed me this. The horse did go better in the first instance with RP , his shoulder was free just his thoracolumbar region was now sore and tight.
so before you spend a lot of money and they are
be careful ,
and if you can find a decent master saddle fiiter (not just saddler) to check it.
ps . they are really heavy saddles but a few of my clients have had there horses helped by them so it s not all bad , just don't be fooled by the no pressure and perfect even weight distribution. Saddle fitting is damage limitation, a well fitted treed saddle is brilliant but how many of us our lucky enough to have a good master saddle fitter that we trust , hence why treeless can be a very good alternative esp for horses that change there 'dress size' regularly.
Celia Cohen ( chartered human and veterinary physio)

[Marengo]

And the trouble is, with such a situation that you describe Celia, by the time your horse is showing signs of having problems with the saddle, it's too late to do anything in terms of returning it and you can end up losing a lot of money. I can relate to what you're describing.