Shoulder In/lateral Work...help!

[SueC]

the language of the horse is body language and pressure

Absolutely and isn't it great that they can understand our body language, despite our lack of twizzly ears and swishy tail?  :lol:  To be really natural our horses should buck like crazy when us predators get on their backs, it's brilliant that they are so willing to become partners with us and let us sit on them isn't it?

When it comes to our balance, it's our responsibility to sit as straight as we can and to move with our horses, so as not to put them off balance.  For young horses just learning to carry us, our posture is so important to make it easy for them to balance us on their backs.  When I'm teaching someone, I might ask them to put a little more weight one side than the other and use various exercises, to correct a rider who is riding with an imbalance, but on the whole, I obviously agree with Heather and feel other than trying to remain stable and centred, actually deliberately thinking about weighting isn't always necessary or useful.  

However, it is fun to experiment with it and find just how we can influence our horses with our weight and it's useful to know so that we can correct ourselves when our horses tell us we're wrong, just as you're doing ST.  

If you can get Heather's book, or read any articles she has on 'turning aids' for example, there's a lot more there about hips and seatbones and what we can try to best aid our horses and make it easier for ourselves.  She explains it in a really good and simple to understand way, that I've got no chance of matching!

Keep us updated with your experimentation though, won't you?  I for one am finding it really interesting to discuss.  B)  

[franklin]

Hi
I hope I am not too late joining in on the subject. When I teach a horse s/in on the long reins or ridden I do the following.
When I ride a corner I push the quarters away, keeping the out side leg on to stop over reaction ie quarters swinging out: then when I ride/ L/Rein the shoulder in I do the following  which is part of a logical progression.
Left rein:  think about pushing the quarters away with your left leg or the whip on the L/Reins ie:  IN THE WALK / NOT TOO TIGHT A REIN start straight sligtly in from the track (giving the horses rump some where to go on when it moves away from your leg). Put your INSIDE leg  on the sideways button (behind the girth) he will move away from this, bingo he will be on three tracks, tickle this spot with your heel so that the aid does not become "dead". To stop him from moving onto a circle, squeeze the OUTSIDE fingers on the rein everytime the OUTSIDE knee raises. Look in the direction you are going in, looking down upsets the weight/balance ratio. Do this for  1 or 2 steps then straighten , take your leg off the sideways button on to the go forward button, straighten your hips (level) place both legs on, release the reins slightly  go forward  with lots of pats and hugs. This achieves the inside leg to the outside hand feeling. ie please stand up straight and bend around/away from my leg. When I teach anything new I do it at the end of a lesson for the last 5 mins.
Hope this will be of some help!
Jenny

[El Caballo de Espana]

Dear Jenny,

Unless I am mistaken (and this is meant with the greatest respect) you are asking the horse to moves sideways away from the inside leg 'on the sideways button behind the girth'.

This cannot be correct for a 'classical or competition' shoulder in.

The aim of the shoulder in is to do exactly that ...... to bring the shoulder in OFF the track leaving the quarters ON the track. The horse should bend around the inside leg ON THE GIRTH into the OUTSIDE REIN asking the horse to step under the body. The horse must not be asked to swing the quarters out at any time for a shoulder in.

The horse cannot bend around a leg behind the girth that position is reserved for the outside leg to control the quarters.

Redbloom - you need to understand a consisiency of method that is proven to work. A ;esson is the best place for this. Yes, others are quite right there are differing methods that are successfull and no one methods works on all horses. However there are fundamentals that do logically work if you think them through. If you think this one through to what it is preparing the horse for "the pirouette, amonsgt other things you will see why the quarters must not get into the habit of falling out.

Franklin is right in suggesting the last five minutes for new stuff - the horse should be supple and ready to learn and if it works - its a good time to stop.

Kind regards Peter

[shoveltrash]

i'm glad to see this thread being picked back up!
because i still experience moments of complete exasperation with my lateral work.
leg yield, no problem.  shoulder in - ok on the right rein, but horrid on the left.  maybe it reveals an imbalance on MY part?
i do know that my horse is slightly stronger in one direction, as he picks up left lead canter from walk with no problem - elevates his shoulder & departs beautifully....but right lead canter depart has always been a struggle for him.
i agree with Peter regarding the inside leg, but i'd like to hear more!
i have the tendency to carry some tension in my shoulders when beginning shoulder in (which i know my horse feels, because he sometimes tenses up), and i have a HARD time not using the inside rein to keep flexion to the inside (i've read that you should not touch the inside rein in shoulder in).
it seems that alot of instruction that i read contradicts itself!
oh well.
Trish

[El Caballo de Espana]

Dear Shoveltrash - we speak again,

If you think of shoulder-in, in a progressive way. ie Leg yield into BOTH hands from centre line to outside (as you already understand leg yield this should not be too much too soon)

However, think into BOTH HANDS and as a straight movement, going sideways parallel to the wall and with the horse straight (from head to tail) and into the bit. Using inside leg at the girth, outside leg relaxed. You upright and striaght.

Then try shoulder-for, less than three track AGAIN STRAIGHT in to BOTH HANDS. ALONG THE WALL. Then try shoulder-in, three track AGAIN STRAIGHT into BOTH HANDS. Progreesively and in a time that the horse feels comfortable. Days or weeks NOT minutes.

As the horse and you learn to keep an even weight in both hands you can progressively start to bend the horse around you inside leg and into the outside rein. Each time using less inside hand.
The inside hand can hold a conversation but not a loud one!

The horse must stay on the bit and relaxed. Little and often - a few steps at a time - always start from a good walk or trot and do not try to make "something good out of something bad"

Hope that helps

Regards Peter

[franklin]

Hi
I have used this method to explain to very confused riders re shoulder in, no it is not perfect but once the horse and rider begin to understand responding to leg requests, one can then perfect it ie: shoulder in off the track.
Jenny

[franklin]

hi jenny again
I must add that I am not advocating turning up the quarter line or anything like that, I did not explain my self properly when I said turn(giving room for his rump) I meant turn just before the track ie 1ft max. I have found that this has helped panicky/confused horses not feeling hemmed in. Very quickly you stay on the track, horse wrapped around your correct leg etc. Some horse have to be taught very quiety in hand before they can relax and cope with it ridden or on the long reins. People try so hard to get it right but get so confused I am sorry if I have confused it any more, but please let me assure you this methoed is a tried and tested one on all manner of shapes and sizes. 1 in particular at the moment that is a very difficult horse who has "attitude"! and not a very supple type, we have coerced him into shoulder in this way, now he thinks he is a smarty pants!!.
Jenny

[El Caballo de Espana]

Dear Franklin and Jenny,

Forgive me for pointing out in the way I did (not wishing to offend or critise). Only I had understood that others were getting confused with differing methods of how a shoulder-in should be.

I certainly appreciate your point that you have succeeded AND there are many wasy to skin a cat (as the saying goes!) but felt that people should know what these movements really are.

What you suggested may well be a tried and tested way for you to get the horse sideways but it is not a 'shoulder-in' which is what I understood is what was confusing to various people.

So many people on my clinics come with the idea that what they are performing is this and that
but get quite a shock when it is pointed out that it is not a movement merely a contortion of an idea ..... and so on.


Merry Christmas to you all

Peter