Shoulder In/lateral Work...help!

[redbloom]

Hi All, I am becoming more and more confused with ref to lateral work:

Shoulder in and shoulder out are lateral movements bend in the opposite direction to direction of movement! (ok fine)

Renvers and Travers are lateral movements bent in teh direction of direction of movement (ok..got that)

Right this is where I start to founder:

aids for shoulder in/out vs aids for renvers/travers

I keep finding conflicting use of aids for these movements...

1. shoulder in for example now in some instances I observe weighting the inside seat bone/opeing the outside hand, to invite movement in that direction (but not losing contact) and lightly nudging with inside leg to move across and round that leg.

2. ok, next one weighting the outside seat bone, thus encouraging the horse to move in that direction (as you would apparently use in renvers/travers)again opening contact of outside rein and neck reining of inside.

3. All sorts of combinations of inside/ouside seat bone, outside leg back/not back but balancing...neck rein action, not neck rein action...opeing and inviting outside rein/holding and controlling bend!!!!


Am starting to loose it, as i am being told one thing, then another, then read another etc etc etc...I am trying to introduce lateral work to a green horse, thus must be as obvious and comprehendable to him and myself as possible...at present he initailly starts to bend around inside leg and then drifts forwards on arc, rather than three track of nay kind...what aids do I use to ask him to exept the bend and crossing and weight bearing of back legs, rather than opting out and starting a circle????

He is rather stiff on right rein and less flexible in right hind, thus the shoulderin excercise will help strenthen and supple that side of body...but as said with so many diffrent ways to go about it, am stuck.....would really appreciate  afull hardy plan to work on and how to discourage the opting out and moving forward.

thanks C

[SueC]

Could you have a lesson, instead of trying to work it out from written stuff C?  I think you're making it too complicated really.

Sue

[redbloom]

Completely, am indeed having a lesson per week bothwith with my own horse and on schoolmasters: what am finding difficult is that am being given conflicting direction to the shoulderin via the schoolmaster lessons, both and conflicting aids produce the shoulderin on those particular horses...some produce the shoulderin via an opening of outside hand and allowinupper body to remian as if on a circle, without any additional leg aids...others produce the shoulderin via an active inside leg to bend and use of the leg in nudging manner to step across and a holding/balancing of outside hand.

In nutshell am trying to fathom what is correct, rather than what the horse has been taught...I don't want to go about asking in a aprtilar way and finding altter on that was incorrect and thus counter productive...

The work I do with the instrcutors with own horse is very fundemental at present, moving forward, exepting contact etc...but at some point I need to do things myself and not soully rely on them to hold my hand...if I had soem pointers in right direction am sure will work it out for self, which I think is very valid in riding.

[Cobstar]

Sue's response about getting on and doing rather than theorising has a lot of merit :lol:  There's a quotation from Blake that I love to the effect that "Desire that breeds not action breeds pestilence".

I've been taught several different aid combinations for leg yield, shoulder in and funnily enough canter.  They all get the desired result - and not just on the horses trained by the individual who teaches them.  At the end of the day you have to use a set of aids that work and fit in with the progressive training philosophy/scheme you have decided to adopt.  And still be able to adapt to deal with a particular situation with a particular horse at any given time - which may mean using one of the aid combinations for a short time for example.

[redbloom]

Hi Cobstar, I understand what your saying and indeed do not want to run before walk, yet I just would like to knwo what people's own ideas towards the aids are...its all well and good saying go have lesson (which is valid) yet was asking what people's own learning has taught them with ref to these movements.

I actually find it quite frustrating when the people answere with ...go have a lesson, as I am not so full of self that belive could get anywhere without knoledgale help, thus asking on this forum for advice with ref to teh aids, NOT about having a lesson. No offence SueC atall!! I understand whta you mean...yet am kind fo person who likes to know what am doing in a mechanical/biomechanic way before go about performing it... is best way I learn...my over theorsing a subject is my way of comprehending it and thus why asked for feedback...

thus if anyone has any feedback with ref to the theory of these movements, I would love to hear from you! :P  

[Cobstar]

Heather has included a very clear exposition of the aids she uses and why in her book on Enlightened Equitation.  Why not using that as a starting point for considering whether those are appropriate aid sets to use given those you are currently taking lessons from.  The shoulder in aids will possibly differ from what you've been taught elsewhere.  There has been much discussion on internet forums and elsewhere re the appropriate aids for shoulder in as I'm sure a search will uncover.

I can see where you are coming from re wanting to understand system before you apply it.  I learn better by having something explained (by reading or being told), having a chance to see it happen in practice, then trying it, and then going away and reading up on the theory (again).

I also see where Sue is coming from and I think you might well find that her suggestions work for you. Go and have some lessons on a schoolmaster, get the instructor to show you what they do, then try it and see if it works for you, then have an internal philosophical debate about whether it fits with your personal training strategy.  And go from there.

As I said earlier, I've been taught a number of different aid combinations for various schooling movements over the years, and they all work.  I make the decisions on what to use now on my current take on an overarching training philosophy.  The aids for shoulder in cause me the most internal conflict  :lol: !


 

[SueC]

No offense taken.  

I am in agreement with cobstar.  Many people do teach different aids for the same thing, because different aids do work for the same thing.  I would also agree with looking at Heather's book.

I was taught, not the movements exactly, as in this is how you do shoulder-in, but how each part of me and what I'm doing influences which part of the horse.  By the time I got to travers, all I needed was to be shown a picture of travers and, already knowing how to move the quarters, ask for bend etc., I could ride travers.  The instructor then tweaked what I was doing eg, quarters in a bit more, a bit more bend, feel for more engagement, and I knew how to do that.  (this was Heather btw, who couldn't ride and demonstrate as she was wearing shorts and flip-flops at the time, but we won't mention that!  :lol: )

So, I would be a little wary of giving a list of aids for each movement.  Not forgetting that too much of one aid (eg a rein aid) and not enough of another (eg leg aid) wouldn't get the result required and could mean a rider tying themselves up in knots, thinking they've got the whole thing wrong, when they haven't.  Far better imo to start how Heather starts, by applying rein aids, leg aids, seat aids, etc., individually to see exactly what happens and how much, which can also change from horse to horse.

Another example would be that say, a right rein, raised a little and taken into the horses neck would cause the quarters to swing in to the right.  A left leg taken back, could push the quarters in to the right.  A rider's upper body turned can cause the quarters to move in to the right.  All of these could be part of travers.

If you're applying different aids, but getting the required results, look into why you're getting the required results and go from there, rather than ask for a definitive method.

Heather's descriptions are excellent imo and she explains it all in a very simple way (KISS, keep it simple stupid!  :lol: ), so I'd agree, her book is a good place to look for the answers, but I'd still say experimentation under instruction, so that you know what you're feeling is right, is the best way.

[redbloom]

Cheers Cobstar,

yep am just trying to consolidate info...

I am veering towards thinking logically that the seat aid and weight aid to the inside (the way horse is bending) will encourage use of that hind and bending around that leg...ummm, am just at second trying to get things sorted in head, along lines of what my aids are actually inviting/encouraging..ie what leg etc will be effected...I find this all very interresting and also humbling to know my every move is an aid, be it positive or negative to the training!!!

[Cobstar]

Fab reply Sue - QED!

[shoveltrash]

what a great discussion!  i, too, have found myself completely confused & "tangled up" attempting to do all of the *different*  (conflicting) aids that i read about in various training books/magazine articles.
my instructor (the epitome of patience) kept telling me that i was working too hard at it (seat here, leg pushing there, etc etc).  
i don't know about all of the different techniques, but what clicked for me was keeping in mind that horses move away from pressure.  
apply pressure: horse moves away from it.  
lower leg pressure can move haunches, upper leg (thigh) pressure can move shoulders.  horses also move away from seatbone pressure (right or left).
i taught my green horse (without benefit of learning from a schoolmaster) shoulder-in by shifting my seat - outside seatbone forward slightly, inside seatbone back slightly & weighted, WITH my elbows at my sides, so that my rein aids mimic my seat - all while pressing with my inside leg to keep haunches to the rail, pressing with my outside thigh to push the shoulder in, and slightly turning my upper body to the inside, while maintaining my focus/vision on the track straight ahead to maintain forward progress (inside of going in a circle!).  i don't know if that is "correct" per the big training gurus, but it works for me.
you know, i just typed that and reread it -- it sounds just as confusing as the books i described!
the only other thing i can offer (and i am NOT an expert):  the basics of Tai Chi helped me.  keeping your "center," while remaining relaxed...keeping my "center" while riding, and applying aids, AND remaining relaxed/not tense has been the biggest challenge.  my horse certainly performs better when i am not "working too hard!"
oh yes, and i found that working on getting my horse to give to pressure from the GROUND first, before attempting it under saddle makes a big difference (he gets it now!!!).
Trish

[Pam K]

With regard to weight aids, surely Heather teaches the opposite to what's just been said above?  Horses move towards a weighted seat bone, eg to turn to the inside the inside seat bone goes forward and down, which puts weight on it so the horse turns that way.  It's like the horse wants to step under the weight to redistribute it equally, the same as a person would if they were giving a piggy-back and their passenger leaned to one side, they'd step that way so as not to lose balance and topple over in that direction.  

Leg aids are slightly different in that the horse does step away from the pressure, in the same way that you would if someone pushed you sideways.

Also not sure about moving the forehand with the upper leg?  How would this work?

[shoveltrash]

Heather may very well teach the opposite of what i stated (and i may not have stated it very well)...the riding/training methods i & my instructor utilize are based on a foundation of Natural Horsemanship principles.  Horses are pressure-sensitive animals - you can observe this in all equine interactions.  Alpha horse "applies pressure," less dominant horse moves away.  We begin from the ground, honing that basic concept...applying pressure to each area of the horse's body, until the horse "gives" and moves away.  This is the basis for ground manners, as well as preparatory under saddle work (my trainer started off as a "reiner," but found that the concepts are universal).  The horse becomes "trained," getting more & more sensitive...going from touching skin, to hair, to "air."  My youngest horse does sidepass, shoulder-in, turn on forehand, etc. from the ground, with only a raising of my hand (or stick) - & he is not under saddle yet!
With all of this said, i still may not explain the "aids" as correctly as my instructor would......all i know is that if i weight my right seatbone, my horse bends around the pressure of it.  left lead canter cue is simply a subtle weight in the left seatbone, with right leg back.  leg yield left is subtle weight in the right seatbone, with pressure from right lower leg.  
i have also found from schooling bridleless (no halter/bridle -just a strap around the neck) that thigh pressure also moves the shoulders.  it's not dramatic, but very subtle.  i believe that this is rooted in Reining as well.
so that's my two cents - i just thought i'd offer a different perspective......assuming other ideas/methods are acceptable for consideration.    

[Heather]

Hi folks,

Dont think too much about weighting this and weighting that!! It is the prime cause of one of the ills of lateral work- that of collapsing a hip or droppinga  shoulder!!

Right, think about it folks- we are taught as far as possible to mirror the horse in our own body positioning, at least that is what I have been taught, and it works. So in shoulder in, think of turning your body to the inside, forget seatbones etc, keep it simple and turn the shoulders in the same direction as you want te horse to bring his. It is hugely important to keep the inside leg forward at the girth, so that the horse curves his forehand around it, from behind the outside shoulder, not just bending the neck.

In Classical riding, we are always tuaght to keep the hands close together when performing lateral exercises. Raise the inside hand a couple of inches, and 'ask' for flexion with the fingers. This should not be an obvious opening and closing of the fingers on the reins which can be quite a jerk, but a smooth tightening of the finger muscles, then a release of the tension, without the fingers doing more than a slight uncurling around the reins.

The outside rein should lie along the neck- not away from it- you are after all asking for the forehand to be displaced inwards from the track. Using the outside hand away from the neck gives the horse the exact opposite signal!! The outside rein should nudge against the neck to say to the horse 'move your forehand over and away'. On a well trained horse, you should be able to use almost no inside rein at all, in fact,  it should be able to loop, and the horse remain in shoulder-in with only the rider's body position and inside leg.

The inside rein across the neck (indirect rein of opposition behind the withers) should not be used in shoulder in, as it has an opposing effect on the hindquarters. When first teaching a horse, be prepared for only a few steps at a time and only in walk. Also if it is a bit 'leg yieldy' to begin with dont worry!! As long as he gets the general idea! Build up then to shoudler-fore, a small three track shoulder-in, and gradually as the horse to supple up and increase the bend and the angle. When the horse finds it easy in walk, introduce the work in trot, and again be satisified with only a few steps at a time, building up the number of steps gradually.

A three track shoulder in, will consist of outside hind making one track, inside hind and outside fore, in line,  making the second track, followed by inside foreleg. The hind feet should face forwards, and the hindlegs not cross over, only the forelegs.

Later in a four track shoulder-in, when the horse has achieved a strong degree of lateral bend, the hindlegs will also cross, but in early training do not try to achieve this, as it will only be a leg yield along the wall!!

Hope this helps-

Heather

[shoveltrash]

i should NEVER try to write down riding advice!  after a whole day of barn work, riding, yard work, etc. (and THINKING about the lateral work subject), i began to think that i should've written more simply, or not written at ALL.  
Heather NAILED it!!!  the horse is a reflection of the riders body.....i remember hearing my instructor say this (she's going to shoot me!), but somehow got mired in the "weight this," "weight that" details :(  
but now i'm wondering about "weighting" the stirrup in the direction of travel for lateral work.....this is due to the new Dressage Today - on the last page there is an illustration of it!  it says:  "step into the stirrup iron that is on the side of your direction of travel as if you are going to dismount."  aaacckk.  i find that i, too am easily confused!!!!  but i do know that the horse mirrors us (or vice versa) in lateral positioning.......as well as in other ways (ever see a rider with a hollow back?  riding a hollow-backed horse? or a rider with a tense upper body, rider a horse with tense neck/jaw/back?).
THANK YOU HEATHER for making it so much simpler!  i guess i need to buy your book?  
i'd still like to know about that thing in Dressage Today, though.
(from now on i'll just READ, and spend less time writing!  DUH)

[SueC]

"step into the stirrup iron that is on the side of your direction of travel as if you are going to dismount."

Addendum:  After first making certain your girth is very tight, or you'll find you're doing a bit more sideways than your horse is.  :lol:

Anyway, in the uk, we're told to quit both our stirrups before dismounting, so it wouldn't work for us.  

I would guess the advice is based upon the principles behind what Pam K described earlier in the thread:

It's like the horse wants to step under the weight to redistribute it equally, the same as a person would if they were giving a piggy-back and their passenger leaned to one side, they'd step that way so as not to lose balance and topple over in that direction.

The Franz Mairinger book has an excellent description of how this works, where it describes a person carrying a pole and trying to balance it.

I've seen people exaggeratedly throwing their weight from one side to another to influence the horse sideways.  It does work, but it's ugly, unnecessary, uncomfortable for the horse and bad for their backs.  

I think an understanding of weight and balance can help a rider understand why not to chuck their weight the opposite direction from the movement, so it is important and it is a good thing to play with and to experiment with, especially to learn how much a small change in your balance can affect the horses.  

I do recommend Franz Mairinger, Horses are made to be Horses, for an easy to understand explanation, but I don't think chucking our weight about is a good thing.  :lol: