Taking A Contact?

[Candypony]

Hello everyone

Does anyone have any advice that I can use to help my mare (6 year old p/b andalusian) accept the bit?

Obviously I don't mean I want pounds of weight in my hands (!) but she's an expert at dropping her head and looking pretty but not actually going forwards into the bridle.  I changed her bit recently to a loose ring lozenge (with high copper content) which has helped but, if I start to ask a little more of her she either sets her jaw and resists me, lifts her head, hollows and rushes off, or simply throws a tantrum!  She's a bit whizzy (as well as opinionated) so riding her forwards too much just results in more speed!

Also - when lunging, should the side reins be the same length or should the inside one be shorter? I tried shortening the inside one recently (just 2 holes) and to be honest she seems to go a bit better, softer bend and more accepting of the bit.  

Any thoughts?

S

[Cloud_cirrus]

Have you got any pictures you can post?

T

[Mandeigh]

side reins.......  side reins.......    just kidding..... if that is working for you to do what you are doing at the mo, stick with it.

but not actually going forwards into the bridle

and there in is the basis of the problem...no going forwards...so is she dropping behind the contact and backing off your leg?  If so the moving from the leh would be the first point I would be looking at.  Making sure that when you do play with her mouth when asking her to soften that you keep backing up with the leg and don't become entirely fixated on the hand ( not a criticism of you personally, just a very easy thing to get into).

going forward really is just accepting the leg.....it dosen't mean zooming round at great speed, but establishing a rhythem, and that helps when the horse is in a  confident rythem, for it then to think about what is going on in the face end.

what helped me keep my horses attention and outline was lateral work.

also for yourself, be very aware where your weight is and how you are asking for things.....it is surprisingly easy to just misplace the weight and for the horse to have to rebalance themselves underneath you......video's are great for this, if you can bare to look at yourself ( I can't  :P )

as CC said...any pics.....Id love to see her!

 

[Candypony]

Hi

I'll try and persuade house mate to come take some pics - I don't actually have any of us together riding that are in focus!  Would be interesting to see them myself - although we do have mirrors in the school. Of course, I think she's the most beautiful equine around!

Actually had an interesting ride last night - put her GP on (I have a treed dressage saddle too but beginning to wonder if she's not outgrowing it which means yet another saddle - we're on our 4th in 3 years, the saddler comes every 6 months) and bridle with no noseband...  She was lovely - flowing forwards and soft.    Still not keen on me being able to "feel" her mouth but maybe that's something that will come with time.

Definitely think I should sell all the saddles that don't fit and buy a treeless though!

She finds basic lateral work incredibly easy and uses it as an evasion if I'm not careful (amuses my instructor!) although half pass is challenging both of us! And yes, you're probably right about my weight - she's very sensitive to it.  

As for lunging, I only use side reins for a portion of the time as I feel it's helping her accept the bit without the added complication of me at the other end.  I don't lunge her off the bit though - I put the cavesson over the bridle - hence the lack of noseband when I rode last night.  Somehow they help her concentrate!

thanks for the ideas so far though,

S

[Mandeigh]

hmmmm just re reading your post and nopticing she is six.....that reminds me when Korskie was 6 we had a mouthy phase and the vet at that time did say there can be adult teeth just settling and stuff........just a thought.

[jay]

I found this very interesting as I have much the same problem with mine. Use the leg too much, and he shoots forward, head up, but he needs a bit of leg to remind him to activate the quarters and go into the rein.  

I read Charles de Kunffy's Principles of Dressage last year and there was a very simple point he made in it which is this: Legs Energise, Seat Modifies, Hands Verify. I found that very enlightening as so many instructors will tell you to use your leg but then don't follow that up by explaining how to use your seat to modify what then happens, in our case, horse goes forward more than you want. Most riders therefore use their reins which only exacerbates the problem. At least this has been my experience in the past, perhaps your instructors are much better!

So what you need to learn to do is to use your seat and body to check the forward rush so that you actually get the response you want from the leg aid and not be afraid to ask her to go forward.

And don't worry about the side reins, IMHO, I have watched some very classical instructors lungeing (including Arthur Kottas) and they all use side reins.

good luck
jay

[Mandeigh]

Legs Energise, Seat Modifies, Hands Verify.

I like that! what a fab concise way of putting things. Thanks for sharing that one.

[jay]

Quite agree, isn't it concise and simple? I especially like the idea that the hands are only there to say "thank you, that is what i want" and all the work comes from the legs and seat. It is a great book, much to be recommended if you can find it.

jay

[carlos]

Hi Candypony

Hmmm p/b Andalusian - mare aswell - very nice.

With Carlos (Andalusian) i used to swap bridles quite frequently - rope bridle to teach him to ask him to bend but there wasn't any pressure on his mouth, Pelham bridle - no noseband - double reins - even now i play and squeeze my fingers so as he can relax and a close contact with my legs.

Who's are her parents??

Best Regards

Kerry and Carlos.xx

[Candypony]

Good morning all.

Jay - I love the quote too, and you're right about using my seat more to control the sheer speed of her response.  I had a great lesson last night on her  :lol:  and we spent a lot of time addressing my incorrect (although I think quite understandable! ) way of not using my legs enough to keep her stepping under whilst using weight aids to maintain a slower speed.  I had your quote in mind as we were warming up. Apparentlythough our contact is getting much better and it's obviously going to take time to become consistent.

Carlos - Candy (Mill Candidez) was bred up in Leicester by Mandy Wheatcroft.  Her father was Bailour IV (I think that's the right number - the passport is at home), her mom a TB/connemara.  Bailour was a classically trained stallion - I saw photos of him ridden both astride and side saddle in full spanish dress!  Candy looks like a finer version of a grey andalusian, incredibly pretty and very cuddly! I'll get some photos soon I promise!

S

[carlos]

Candypony

You've made my day - Carlos's dam is Cenicienta who was owned by Willowdell Andalusian Stud in Weston Super Mare (she unfortunately died a few years ago) and his Sire was - he died a couple of years ago he was also a classically trained purebred Andalusian named guess what wait for it Bailaor IV - well the same one as yours anyway. - Bailaor was a wonderful well put together horse - a very proud one at that - he was Purebred Inhand Champion at the very first ever (i think that's correct) Breed show in this country.

How strange is that - well it's great to hear from a fellow Bailaor baby owner - there's not that many around - Carlos is 14 now and still has the presence of his mother and the sensitive side of his father - but is still wonderful and i do love him to bits.

Best Regards Kerry and Carlos.xx

[Candypony]

Hi Carlos!

Right, I'm at home today so have dug out the passport - Candy's sire is Bailaor II born in 1979 apparently. Candy was born in 1998 and was his penultimate foal as he must have been quite elderly.

So was Bailaor IV related do you know?  He doesn't feature on C's family tree.

Off to ride now anyway, I'll tell her we may have found some relatives!

S

[carlos]

Candypony

Yes it was Bailaor II and yep he was born in 1979 - wow yes she must have been one of his last foals that he sired.

Great to hear from another Bailaor baby owner.

xx

[KoolKat]

I have a mare in which activity in the hind is not easily created by riding "forward".  As a matter of fact, there is no "forward" (in the true sense of the movement coming through the back in a relaxed manner) until the hind leg gains activity.  She tends to tense and "lock".  With her, our warmup consists of exercises to activate the hind in a relaxed and slowish tempo.  Lots of work at the walk in figures, leg yields, etc (suppling) and more at the trot.  Over time, as she gained confidence in her work (and strength), she was able to come out and work "out of the box" with good activity.  It takes time.   It takes a certain amount of strength (time+training) in order for a horse to truly come over their back and to your hand.  If she gets tense and rushes off, usually it is better to train that type of horse "under tempo".  Work on the lunge at a relaxed trot will help you see what her natural tempo is - this will be when she starts to "swing" in the loin area, every step is the same, and often you will find them going forward, down, and out (rolling the peanut/stretching their back) at this point.  When a horse is relaxed like this (under saddle), you can then begin (slowly!) to add energy and increase the umpphh! of the stride without pushing the horse onto the forehand and losing tempo.  If your hand is soft and receiving, the energy from the hind quarter will then be felt in the hand (this is what true connection is) and be available for "recycling" back to the leg.  I wouldn't worry too much about where the head and neck are, I'd work on rhythm, relaxation and then the contact (the training scale).  Good luck!

[Candypony]

Morning,

Thanks for your thoughts - I've noticed that when she's relaxed (or even tired) she is much more willing to accept the bridle and chill out. Lunging has taken a while for her to relax with but she now does drop her head and stretch for some of it.

When she's not - well on Sunday we had an internal dressage show and she was horrid.  Tense, excitable, resistant etc etc (this is at home, on her yard, surrounded by her friends..) culminating in two explosions - one where she bucked, landed, reared vertically, landed and bronc-ed across the school whilst warming up and then again in our first test - a canter circle became a rodeo ride.  Needless to say we occupied our usual position - last. :(

Last night she was tired and stiff and completely chilled - so easy peasy to ride though obviously I was also tired and stiff so we didn't do much!   I can think of lots of reasons why we might not have done very well (most of them my problem or external forces) but not one that warranted that kind of reaction so the merry go round of vet, saddler, dentist, physio etc starts again...

Horses?  I must be mad.