Horses For Life

[1 morejump]

Have any of you read this issue yet on Horses for Life?
Judging and Rolkur

It isn't very long but it is rather thought provoking and makes you sit back and wonder what we have to do to fix the judges.  Afterall, the top ones seem to be at the root of the problem.  The judges say who is good and who is bad, the FEI takes them at their word and then sanctions more judges like them to judge novices.  If you read the article it will all make sense, they would rather be naked.  

[Heather]

Hi 1morejump,

There are one or two judges standing up- Dr Gerd Heuschmann, the German vet who has joined forces with Klaus Balkenhol to form the society Xenophon, is also an FEI judge. I know of another German FEI judge who has gone over to Iberians and trains now with my trainer, Luis Valenca- I sometimes see him there.

So it just needs a few more now, but sadly, I think the majority are so blinkered that they dont see any problems with it.

Heatbher

[*BB*]

Unfortunately, judges cant judge warm ups.

If its banned or not - the judge only judges the test presented in front of them.

Going too deep is not going to get a high mark.

Some horses may momentarily drop behind the verticle without loosing the quality, so the judge will look at the horse and way of going as a whole.

A horse will sometimes win despite that fact that it has faults.  Nobody yet has scored 100%.  It may have a 10 walk, a 10 halt a 10 piaffe and passage, good canter but came behind in the trot, its transitions were sharp, it through and swinging through most of the test and didnt make a mistake  Others may not.  

Then everyone says it shouldnt have won?

Others may not be behind, but tense, with sloppy transisitons, irregular steps in piaffe or passage, broke in extended trot (as we saw at the WEG) some loss of balance, not always through, choppy gait, mouth open etc.

So should THIS horse win.

Answer to both - if its the best on the day, then yes.

The horse may have its nose tied to his tail in the warm up...but it is not the place of the judge to comment and its unlikely they would see it anyway.

[stranger]

If you wanna win an FEI gold medal then you have to present the sort of test the  FEI 'gold medal judges' expect too see.

[*BB*]

Some are British...so they they are train UK BD judges - from trainees through to International - Looking at the same thing.

We have Foreign judges come to the UK to train all the levels too.

The UK Training Scales ar based on the German Training Scales.

Non of the FEI's judge warm ups.  

If there is abuse going on then it is up to the stewards to intervene.

Judges just judge what is presented to them in the test and if an FEI judge from a different country gives a horse a high mark for something ugly, then it will not receive a high mark from the USA, UK etc, so will not win.

Rolkir is NOT used in the test....so what can a judge possibley do about it?



 

[Drake]

Rolkir is NOT used in the test....so what can a judge possibley do about it?

They could hammer the results of rollkur which they see in the test - but they don't.....

 

[1 morejump]

You can't perform Rolkur on your horse and expect it to have no reprocussions (sp? :blush: )  I think that the aftermath is very obvious in the arena.  The horses would be wanting to strech out all the way but can't until the test is over so they are very tense and tight all the way through.  So you see excess tail swishing, pinned ears, an unhappy expression and other things that make the test unplesent to watch.  Now, just because a horse does these things doesn't mean their rider does rolkur.  It could mean that the riding is poor, the horse is having an off day, or something doesn't fit right.  So, is rolkur at the base of all problems, no, of course not, but it is a big part with lasting effects.  I wish they could judge the warm up ring though.  

Heather, I read the article on the seat. Brilliant!    

[*BB*]

As I said before - nobody has yet scored 100%

Without sitting with the judge and hearing the comment - seeing each score then you dont know if they are or not.

Speculation.

Not every horse with the way of going you have described is the result of Rolkur - there are other causes.

The judge does not have the time or the pshycic ability to see how they warm up.

They may do a very bad test...but still win.

If you have 30 horses doing Rolkur in the warm up, you will still have a winner.

When the first horse who scores 100% in a test after doing Rolkur in warm up, in view of the judge, who has been delayed waiting for the next horse... then you might have a point.

[1 morejump]

*BB*, you're making it sound like the judges are a totaly unbiased when what a lot of them (not all of them by any means) are uneducated.  They don't adhere to the rules set out to govern them.  
If you actually read the rule book that the FEI has set forth it sounds like everything is perfect.  However, if you don't have the JUDGES judging by those standards everything falls apart.  Here is a link to the new and revised FEI rule book FEI rules (scroll down to pg. 7, thats where it starts) the updated parts are in red.  I don't want to go into it all here, but basically what I am seeing is judges not judging by the standards set for them to judge by.
If the FEI could do something about the judging we would see better and better riders coming out.  I am seeing a lot of good things in the new rules but if the judges won't hold the riders to those levels its like the FEI doesn't exist.

[*BB*]

And under what qualification do you cast such aspertions and pass judgment on the judges?  

The training of the horse is the riders responsibility.

[Heather]

I dont have any qualifications to cast aspersions on the judges either Alli, but I do feel that the judging determines how riders ride tests- they ride the test the way they know the judges want to see.

There are some judges out there who are judging according to the rules, but there are also plenty who arent. The rules are quite clear in their description of what is wanted in the movements, and these are being flagrantly ignored by many judges.

I am constantly appalled by the standard of actual riding in tests, including at , even international level,and have often said it is a pity that they dont at least double the marks for the rider, which could make the difference between winning and losing.

I would bet there would then be a stream of riders beating a path to my door if they thought that improving their riding, would win them a rosette!!

Heather

[*BB*]

Perhaps become a judge yourself and make a difference?

You will then see hows and whys which may change your view perhaps.

The judge is there to do just that judge and is on the side of the horse and rider.

Its for approx 5-6mins - a snapshot in time - and in that time they will mark and comment on what they see in front of them.

They are human and yes can make a mistake, but as Ive stated before, the riding and training are not their responsibility.

If riders follow training as set out by the FEI then perhaps there would be 95% tests...and I know for a fact that nothing would make judges happier.

 

[Heather]

I simply dont have the time to become a judge, that is the problem!! So are you a judge yourself, Alli?

But I repeat, they are not sticking to the rules!! And if a judge doesnt abide by the 'law', then I find it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Heather

[Drake]

The problem with saying 'become a judge & make a difference' is that in reality its not that easy.

You can't change anything as a list 6 judge - you need to be List 1 & FEI.......and in order to get to that position, you have to agree with the current judges as its current judges who examine those who want to upgrade. So do you 'play the game' for 10 years or so to get to List 1 & then totally change the way you have judged for the last 10 years or do you stick to your beliefs and accept that you are unlikely to ever get to List 1 (or be asked to judge at Regionals/Championships)?

[*BB*]

Is this based on experience?

And isnt the issue here that judges are not judging to FEI standards, so its not the List 1/FEI judges?

So it must be the lower level judges?

Unless a horse scores a 10 then it HAS been penalised.

There seems to be a desire to place the blame at the judges door but its not clear which judges?

The lower level judges are trained by the higher level judges / FEI, so they are then being brainwashed by FEI rules?  

Then the comment is that the judges are not judging according to FEI rules.

How can the issue be addressed if its not clear.

Why not become part of the system to change it for the better - or are you afraid of being brainwashed?